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Post by Arsenical on Jul 3, 2017 19:46:57 GMT -6
while i have been watching every thread from the shadows i have finally decided to comment ...... ok so im posting this thread because i want to discuss the idea of having SOTN like consumable items in ROTN while nothng about the alchemy/crafting system has been revealed yet (funny thing considering that's one of the main features advertised for the game) i think the idea of having a wide variety of consumable items would fit well into the game as it will give the player more options to craft and use. So far no igavania after SOTN had the large item system that sotn had and that really bothered me as a kid and kind of still does now and looking at things right now it seems the game is following the same formula for items: the generic potion/High Potion/Super potion/ethers/Antidote and Uncurse that came for every igavania after sotn if we look at medicine items Sotn menu looked like this: ![]()   Now while it was amazing to play Alucard hoarder mode and collect as many items as he could store in his pants the questions emerges! DO I REALLY NEED THESE? tbh im the hoarder type of guy and everyone and their moms know how easy and broken SOTN was to the point all you needed was a good weapon and know how to use some of the spells to steamroll all the game and im not even talking about crissaegrim, even some early game weapons had very powerful attacks that made the game really easy (rapier, firebrand, shield rod + Iron shield and many others) it was until i decided to do a shortsword only challenge where i noticed the items only come in handy if you try to make them useful (you are doing something really wrong or you suck so much you have to rely on them) as in game these many items with pretty vials and colorful icons had little to no use at all!! lets look at the facts! In sotn we had BUFF items aka Steroids, Explosives, limited throwing weapons, and 1 time use Spells but we never got to see those items in subsequent igavanias, why? well maybe because they were not needed or developers were lazy and didnt want to include them. just kidding. Stat potions: raised Alucard stats by 20/30 For a limited period of time we had ATK, DEF, SMART, LUCK and STR potions all of them but ATK potions could be obtained as drops making ATK potion limited to 2 Per game usefulness : "limited" tbh luck potion was the only one i used while trying to get all the drops, all the others were optional but not necesary. Resist Potions: Reduced the elemental DMG taken we had 1 for every element in game + stone. resist holy and thunder could only be obtained by finding them limiting thunder to 3 uses and holy to 2 uses per game usefulness: "not so much" only a small amount of enemies used elemental attacks and the game offers a lot of defense options against elemental (circlets, armors, heck alucards mail offers protection against 3 elements!) i only used resist fires and the ocasional fairy uses.
Explosives and throwing items: kicked the ass of the enemies with 1 time use items that deal a lot of dmg. we had freaking TNT!! NEUTRON BOMBS! MAGIC BOWS and other silly stuff that was never really necesary it could be useful against some bosses but still the damage of some of them could be exceeded with 2 normal attacks. so to conclude the wall of text i would like to see these items return for bloodstained but giving them true utility and not just make the player say: OH SHINY i must pick it up and store it forever because im never going to need it! other than healing potions i never felt true need to use any of thse items not even mana prism or heart repairs well not until short sword challenge. heck Darksoul 3 did a good job with the consumables but its a completely diferent type of game and dificult as hell so i cant really compare them. |
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 4, 2017 2:17:09 GMT -6
Well, let me give my two cents regarding everything you said, breaking out in topics. ABOUT HEALING ITEMS
You briefly talked about how Igavnaia games stuck with the basic potions as healing items, but that is not really accurate. You have a variety of healing items in all Igavania games. The potions being what you usually buy at stores, and food items being found everywhere in the game (with Order of Ecclesia selling food items t00). The food variety surely is smaller than it was at Symphony, but we had a lot of food healing items in the later games. Including some curiosities, like spoiled food that you could only use with some specific ability. ABOUT BUFFING ITEMS
Buffing potions (potions and food that increases your stats and such) really vanished from sequels. Although some games simply didn't put anything as a substitute, later on, we have a good reason for that: the game's Magic System took the roles of those items. Aria of Sorrow, Dawn of Sorrow and Order of Ecclesia, whose Shard System from Bloodstained is based on, all had those things tied as magic. You have Souls (Aria and Dawn) that gives you passive boosts, barriers and increased powers and the same happens with some Glyphs (from order of Ecclesia). You have Golem Soul (STR+12) (Aria) as a substitute to Str potion. You have Zombie Soul (Dawn) as a substitute to Monster vials and such. It would be pretty redundant if, alongside that, those games ALSO had stats-increasing and element-protection potions. ABOUT ATTACK ITEMS
Same as above. The games whose Bloodstained is drawing inspiration for it's Shard System, also use their system as a substitute to those attack items. You have Winged Skeleton Soul (Aria of Sorrow) as a substitute to Throwing Javelins. You have Mandragora Soul (Aria and Down of Sorrow) as a substitute to Power of Sire / Neutron Bomb. You have an array of Summon Souls as a substitute for Monster vials. You have Ignis Glyph (Order of Ecclesia) as a substitute to Flame Star / Fire Boomerang of sorts. Again, it would be redundant if those games had those attack items. BLOOODSTAINED ON ALL THAT
We didn't saw food items yet on Bloodstained, but i'm pretty sure the game will have them. And, as stated above, Shard System will pretty much be a substitute to all those attack items and buffers from Symphony of the Night. We already have some Summon Shards as substitute to Monster Vials and the E3 Demo already has Spear-throwing Shards and other things. I understand your deisre (and some others) of seeing more Symphony of the Night elements on Bloodstained, but i feel that they would fall into a redundancy, if we have something way more useful as a substitute, the Shard System, that is limited only by MP and offers the same, if not more, variety than those items. At least, that's how i see things  you can, of course, not agree with me  |
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jul 4, 2017 6:52:12 GMT -6
I agree with Pure Miriam. Diversified food items were present in Portrait of Ruin and Order of Ecclesia (possibly in other games too, but I can't really remember. Other IGAvanias maybe were limited to potions and meat? Can't recall right now), while buffing/debuffing items were made obsolete by the various magic systems (and were pretty much already pointless in SOTN). About throwing items, I never understood why some people like them lol they always looked like a big gimmick to me. I certainly am not holding my breath for their return, and moreover they too are made obsolete by the shard system. I'd be fine if the items were just food/healing items (diversified is better) and crafting items for weapons and gear. |
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Post by Arsenical on Jul 4, 2017 7:04:21 GMT -6
i agree but the thing is not about healing items i mean we had healing items in pretty much every igavania and bloodstained has them in demos so the healing topic is covered and safe but most importantly confirmed.
yes and no, i agree and disagree. While im 100% aware of the yellow/blue shards/souls i dont think these can really compare to the steroids. In aria and dawn the souls that increased stats by 8 then 12 if im not mistaken and i think it will be the same in bloodstained but this is what im talking about when i say making the items useful.
you can only have 1 yellow shard equiped and blue shard needs to be charged and consumes MP so if we wanted to make items useful they could probably:
Allow the player to have multiple buffs at the same time
Give a really big stat increase say +20 or +30 or even more
make the effects last for a decent amount of time: to short would make the item feel useless and to long would make the item feel broken
as for element resists i think it would be cool to have a resist bar that depletes as you take damage from that specific element but you can only use 1 at a time, idk i would love to see something like this but its not going to happen.
and yes while i agree with equipment most of time the good protections are obtained mid/late game and given how bloodstained has a huge resist element table im pretty sure these would fit in game.
i totaly agree with you. these would be useless and redundant and ofc less limited because MP>Stock
i don't see how these items would fit in the game so i dont mind at all if they are gone for good in fact i think it would be odd to include them.
Food items are a must so i never took those into consideration i can see myself finding Mac n cheese, Also its not about having a substitute but more like having an extra boost for when your current shards and stats are not good enough. imagine running into a room with a chest guarded by a powerful high leveled monster in an early area of the game, sure grind a little get op and come back later but what if i dont want to wait and i want to give it a try im sure these would come in handy but this is looking at things from the average player as im sure 99% of igavania players specially the completionists and crazy mode runners won't struggle with bloodstained, Myself im a completionist and im planning to make my first run a 100% shard per area so i will overlevel hard.
also im not wanting SOTN2 i liked the item system thats it but if i ever wanted something from SOTN to be in ROTN that would be the Special weapon attacks.
for the others since the glyph and soul system is already taken i would love to see a multiple attack combo system like the one we had in curse of darkness (my favorite igavania) some weapons even had their own unique special attack at the end of the combo. and its understandable how itemization worked in every game but thats a different topic.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 4, 2017 10:45:26 GMT -6
Just as a information, i saw one player from E3 saying that Holy Elemental enemy from the Demo (this enemy is in a single place it seems) gives a Enchant Shard called "Holy Resist". I forgot to add that. About your other comments, Arsenical i understand what you are talking about. I am a completionist myself, of sorts, i would love to have all those little things to collect as much as you. I just think it would be a bit redundant or broken. |
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jul 4, 2017 12:08:38 GMT -6
I guess in a sense I loved the redundancy in SotN's systems. It gave a heaping helping of options that were so fun to play with and it seems like even to this day 20 years later I occasionally discover something I didn't know before. (I remember a couple years ago I first ever found out about the Mablung Sword's existence. Got me super hyped to play again and I came back.
I know it's often broken or redundant but it was still so fun to collect and use and explore and it made the game feel so much bigger for it.
There was something else I was going to say but I forgot it. Might come back later.
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Post by Enkeria on Jul 4, 2017 17:16:09 GMT -6
If crafting is in the game, there might be ways to have multiple buffs perhaps. Maybe on items or weapons or shards.
If we level up shards, I wonder if we actually are getting either a shard like +6 attack (ATK), that have a limit, perhaps +10 ATK, and then the other shard we find is a +11 ATK, as an example. Or if we get only one shard that gain strength with higher (or no cap) limit.
If there is only one shard that have ATK, then there might be minor combination ones like +1 ATK, + 1 Luck, +1 Curse Res. And after maxed out (if there is a cap) we end up with perhaps +3 on every attribute that the shard represent. Then maybe there is other combinations, minor ones out there.
Now to the crafting part
If we get one shard, making one attribute stronger, max or no max level feature, maybe there is a crafting level / cap that adds other attributes of choice. Maybe we cannot craft shard-powers, that leaves it up to weapons, and even so, there would be plenty of different ways to actually go through it.
Crafting might not even be in the game, but it is fun to speculate.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jul 4, 2017 17:45:11 GMT -6
The shards aren't named after their monsters like Souls were, so it may be possible to craft shards that you can't get from an enemy.
Perhaps a shard fusion system?
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Post by Arsenical on Jul 4, 2017 19:13:51 GMT -6
Im pretty sure therew will be a craftig system for equipment not so sure about shard crafting, the game was first introduced with the promise be a gothic horror action game with Exploration, Crafting and role play elements we even had concept art about crafting so it would be inconvenient and pretty awkward to remove it. (and 1 year still nothing about this system :<)
if shard crafting system is real then i would love something like this.
i was just looking at the itemization of every igavania and not-so-igavania games and they make sense... well most of them
i was looking at how the drops worked for each game and in ROTN we know monster droping items and weapons will be possible and their item drop slots are probably not going to be taken by material drops.
SOTN- Largest itemization 96% of the enemies dropped 2 items common and rare and only a small amount of the same type of items were dropped by more than 1 monster
CoTM- Same as sotn in terms of common and rare drops but.... a huge amount of enemies dropped pretty much the same items making it redundant and uninteresting, it was understandable since Nathan only had whips as weapons.
HoD - Did a pretty good job and had a pretty large item list with lots of options, the only weird thing was adding money drops to the list but for not having weapon drops we had several equipment drops.
AoS- Good! Soma like nathan could only equip 3 items: weapon, armor and accesory but even so and with the soul system the game had lots of weapons and food item drops.
LoI- like HoD Leon could only equip whips and there werent any whip or armor drops but even so the game had plenty of drop options even if many of them were skeletons dropping potions.
Dos- Bad.. with the weapon crafting system with the use of souls there werent many weapon drops and most of the drops were food items but lets be honest with how awesome soul farming is one cannot be bothered by this.
CoD - The first igavania with a true crafting system and that means a seriously large amount of drops were materials and we also had a steal system but even with all that most monsters dropped the same materials for the sake of progresion, in other terms weapon upgrading was pretty linear.
PoR- pretty good. since jonathan and charlotte could not wear the same pieces of armor we had a large list of drops and the game introduced the quest system giving us quest drops as well (becoming useless after the quest was completed) but even so we had so many options we could even find all the kinds of potions as drops from diferent enemies.
OoE - worst of all of them only a small amount of monsters dropped items and these were materials that we could get trough chest but with chests sitting everywhere it makes sense drops suck that much but still surprised we cant get Potions <--- the most common way of healing as drop from monsters or in chests, nope you gotta buy them.
phew that was a large list
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 4, 2017 19:14:18 GMT -6
I really didn't thought about crafting shards, Enkeria that would be a interesting concept. As far as we know, Shards are demon power that can crystalizes when a demon is killed and they cannot be handled by a ordinary person. Lore-wise, that's probably a side effect of HOW Gebel is summoning the demons. Most probably using himself as the beacon to attract demons as the curse itself was intended. That probably makes the demons prone to have their power crystalized. Some demons have crystals on them (like Vepar). Considering that Shards are Crystalized Demon Power, we can use the logic that the demon itself doesn't need to exist in the physical realm, as long as the demonic power itself is obtained and crystalized. At the 2017 E3 Demo AND at interviews, we got confirmation that Shards aren't only obtained by killing demons. The E3 Demo has two "Shard Candlesticks", pillars holding Shards. One with Fire Cannon and one with Double Jump. It has been said that they just put those there because they wanted to show the updated Fire Cannon and because they didn't want to put more bosses. Double Jump Shard, from the new Skill Shard Type, may be a reward from a boss, OR be protected by a boss, inside a Shard Candlestick. Anyways, Candlesticks that holds shards WILL be at the game. And they aren't demons. They are demonic power harnessed and turned into Shards. Considering what lovelydumpling said, that makes even more sense. Double Jump is a good example. It doesn't have any demonic name nor demon, it's just the name of the skill itself, AND it is inside a Candlestick. If that maintains in the final game, it means that Double Jump Shard is pure demonic power crystalized, without a demon itself. I always remember that IGA said years ago, that they wanted to make Shards "mature" first, using alchemy, before being "usable", but they would probably drop that idea, because they thought it would be too frustrating for the players to obtain a new power and can't use it right away. If SOME of that concept still remains, it could be some kind of limited crafting / alchemy regarding Shards somehow. |
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Post by Arsenical on Jul 4, 2017 19:25:20 GMT -6
if im not mistaken in aria of sorrow in order to progress in the game we had to find souls of enemies that never appeared in the game but they were inside candlesticks. Malphas, Skula and undine irc.
i can think of having to go to AREA A to get a shard then go to AREA B to get another one then fuse them to get a shard to enter AREA C
could fit in game with the exploration elements. i should stop referencing igavanias but loved how SOTN gave you so many options for exploring without having to force the player to go through an specific path.
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you can, of course, not agree with me 
