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Post by CastleDan on Jun 22, 2017 8:41:55 GMT -6
Okay, there's some criticisms out there in the world wide web that have irked me and not because the game can't be criticized ( as I myself have done plenty of it ) but it's more to do with the types of criticisms. More than anything I've been noticing comments left by people pointing out supposed flaws that were consistently elements of other IGAVANIA games. 1. Speed 2. Floaty 3. Level Design SPEED and FLOATY DESIGNLet's dive right in. Okay as we know lately there's been loads of criticism of the speed, mainly that it looks like she's moving against high wind. Now, if we were to break down different IGA games we'd see that the other games weren't fast either.   Hell I saw ridiculous criticisms like everything is slow, down to the attacks ( oddly being said about the heavy weapon Miriam uses )  Order of Ecclesia is a favorite among many of the places talking about sluggish movements even though her turn animation and run animation feel infinitely slower. So, Castlevania on a whole has had varying degrees of slow and a floaty feeling since IGA has been involved. It begs the question why are people complaining about it now? There was this big 'dev' post on neogaf where as I mentioned they criticized everything from the run, to the turn, to the attacks with heavy swords. It's almost like there's a deep misunderstanding on this game. Fans of IGA's games for example know the heavy swords are heavy and naturally slower, but there's also very quick weapons you can spam. Fans should also know that you start slow in the game but you get abilities that typically allow you to travel faster, jump higher, among other many things. LEVEL DESIGN - This one is a fun one because I'm actually the most critical of level design but to be fair I've been critical of that aspect in almost ALL the games. The church footage was posted recently on one of the aforementioned sites. There were a few comments talking about poor level design. Now I'm really curious what modern castlevania games people have been playing that did fantastic level design? The games rely heavily on copy and pasted rooms and usually repeat structures over and over. This isn't new, it's been happening since SOTN but it's been happening more and more since then. Even so this bell tower feels very similar to SOTN's and I'm having a hard time 'getting' why level design seemed to be overlooked a lot by fans of the 2d games and not with this? This isn't a defense of the level design even though I think it's vastly better than what we were getting on the DS games thus far but what am I missing? Why are complaints that seem to never be made about the previous games are all of a sudden piling onto this one? Is 2.5d easier to criticize? Is it due to it being less stylized than 2d so issues become more apparent? I want everyones thoughts on this because there's a lot of contradictions out there especially from people saying .. " I've played all the metroidvania's and this one doesn't feel like the others." Being critical is an important thing for any game for any product because it's in that criticism that improvements can be made but the main question here is why did the other games get the pass? Try reading this thread and not crying fan tears - www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1395600 |
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Post by Yän on Jun 22, 2017 10:10:12 GMT -6
Most people on the Neogaf thread are actually quite positive about the game. Don't just read the haters' comments.
That being said I think the most frustrating part of the negative comments is that they always just give us a generic "this looks like crap" without stating any precise reasons or suggestions on what would realistically be a better version of the thing they are criticizing. While this is a typical sign of haters being haters for no good reason I still believe that the comments should be taken into consideration by IGA and his team. They should adress the criticism and try to figure out ways to make it more appealing to these people. I say this not because I agree with the criticism but because I want Bloodstained to be successful enough to start a new era of great Igavanias.
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 22, 2017 10:14:33 GMT -6
Most people on the Neogaf thread are actually quite positive about the game. Don't just read the haters' comments. That being said I think the most frustrating part of the negative comments is that they always just give us a generic "this looks like crap" without stating any precise reasons or suggestions on what would realistically be a better version of the thing they are criticizing. While this is a typical sign of haters being haters for no good reason I still believe that the comments should be taken into consideration by IGA and his team. They should adress the criticism and try to figure out ways to make it more appealing to these people. I say this not because I agree with the criticism but because I want Bloodstained to be successful enough to start a new era of great Igavanias. Most, are you sure? I'm gonna do a count  I think a lot of the negativity happens on page 2 and 3. I think the argument I made in my main post was that many of the criticisms are of things that have been around in his games since the beginning and either : a) they've been oblivious to those problems b) 2.5d makes it more obvious or somethings different in this case. I mean when someone says the level design is bad, it's repetitive and looks copy and pasted. Then someone is like the other games did the same thing then that same person goes.... No, Order Of Ecclesia had great level design. You have to wonder what the heck people are missing here? |
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Post by Yän on Jun 22, 2017 10:21:19 GMT -6
I mean when someone says the level design is bad, it's repetitive and looks copy and pasted. Then someone is like the other games did the same thing then that same person goes.... No, Order Of Ecclesia had great level design. You have to wonder what the heck people are missing here? Many people confuse level design and environment design with one another. People might say that they don't like the level design when they really mean that the 3D-environment-style is not their cup of tea. |
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 22, 2017 10:40:13 GMT -6
I mean when someone says the level design is bad, it's repetitive and looks copy and pasted. Then someone is like the other games did the same thing then that same person goes.... No, Order Of Ecclesia had great level design. You have to wonder what the heck people are missing here? Many people confuse level design and environment design with one another. People might say that they don't like the level design when they really mean that the 3D-environment-style is not their cup of tea. I'd agree with you if I didn't specify that they specifically mentioned the simple layout and the repetitive look of the environments. Two things that have plagued the DS vanias quite a bit. I'm definitely not talking about people who don't care for the visuals themselves that seems like a completely legitimate argument to make, but things that other games in the series had which people had no problem with than but do now? That's the main difference here. Which is why I'm wondering what IS different now? Have people been away from his games for so long they forgot how the others felt and looked like? Is it the 2.5d that makes the animations and level design stick out more in a negative way? There's an argument to be made by people saying look at what ORI does or Hollow Knight!!! They're revolutionizing the genre. However, it was clear from the beginning that this wasn't meant to revolutionize a genre, it was to fulfill something that's been missing a classic IGA experience. We don't need a market of revolutionary games, sometimes throwbacks to the past are good as well and this is one of them. ( even though I don't feel it's THAT out of fate ) |
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Post by XombieMike on Jun 22, 2017 11:23:47 GMT -6
Clipping weapons through the walls and jumping through platforms are things I think stand out as a negative for 3D, but I can overlook this stuff, as I can't provide a good suggestion on how to deal with it. These weren't really issues for me in some reason with 2D.
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Post by arct1c0n on Jun 22, 2017 12:17:05 GMT -6
The real problem is your going to and listening to people on NEOGAF
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 22, 2017 12:28:09 GMT -6
The real problem is your going to and listening to people on NEOGAF I've been saying that to myself for years but I can't seem to quit the habit. |
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Post by Busterific on Jun 22, 2017 14:01:21 GMT -6
Clipping weapons through the walls and jumping through platforms are things I think stand out as a negative for 3D, but I can overlook this stuff, as I can't provide a good suggestion on how to deal with it. These weren't really issues for me in some reason with 2D. The jumping through platforms thing seems a lot easier to deal with in 2D since the character is usually on top of everything to begin with so it looks like they're jumping in front of the platform. It seems like this is something that could be worked around in a 3d environment using visual tricks, but would not be nearly as strait forward to get working in a similar manner. |
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Post by Yän on Jun 22, 2017 14:14:54 GMT -6
Clipping weapons through the walls and jumping through platforms are things I think stand out as a negative for 3D, but I can overlook this stuff, as I can't provide a good suggestion on how to deal with it. These weren't really issues for me in some reason with 2D. The jumping through platforms thing seems a lot easier to deal with in 2D since the character is usually on top of everything to begin with so it looks like they're jumping in front of the platform. It seems like this is something that could be worked around in a 3d environment using visual tricks, but would not be nearly as strait forward to get working in a similar manner. I'm assuming they already tried and dismissed this but a thing that they could do would be to give Miriam a fixed position in the render order so she's always rendered in front of everything around her. This can also have some drawbacks though such as foreground elements and special effects also needing their own positions in the render order. |
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Post by exile on Jun 22, 2017 15:15:34 GMT -6
Dan, I think you're correct that a lot of it stems from the 2.5D highlighting graphical oddities that are far less apparent in traditional 2D. Clipping was mentioned, which has always been an issue for me, since 3-D became a thing. I don't mind if graphics aren't the best, but nothing breaks my immersion faster than seeing half a sword poking through somebody's head/back when it shouldn't, or hair sticking THROUGH a hood or helmet.
I also think some of it is more subjective. Having started with the genre in 2D, back in the 8-16 bit era when things were a lot more rough, we're simply more accustomed to making allowances in that medium.
Another factor is I think that people are (not maliciously) a little clueless about what certain processes entail and they just come out of left field with all of these comparisons and demands that don't really make much sense. Bloodstained won't (and probably shouldn't) have the speed of a fighting game. It won't have platforming like Uncharted. Unless it's a very small castle (which people obviously don't want), every piece can't be meticulously hand-crafted unless they either significantly reduce the graphics/quality, add more team members ($$), or further delay the game ($$). I personally adore Rayman Legends. I think it's the best platformer to come out in the past 10 years, easily. Gorgeous and vibrant, fantastic music, really unified overall design, tons of fun, difficulty that's whatever you want it to be - easy to complete, very challenging to play at the highest level. The thing is, Rayman uses a cartoonish art style, that while fantastically well-done, is much more forgiving than a realistic style like Bloodstained is using. The game is also a collection of fairly short levels, which allows them to be very painstakingly crafted, but I don't think that type of structure would work as well for Bloodstained if you want a seamless and unified castle.
My point is only this - I believe Bloodstained, while not perfect, looks pretty darn fantastic for the type of game it is and the budget the team is working with. I'm actually quite impressed that they are (seemingly, so far) pulling so much off. I have no problem with someone who disagrees and says, "I don't think the game looks good." What bothers me is unfair criticism that says, "The game looks like crap! It should have graphics like a fighting game that has only 12 characters and 10 stages!" or "It should be 300 hours long like Skyrim!" Stuff like that just strikes me as absurd and makes me question whether the speaker regularly walks into McDonald's and demands to be seated in a private banquet room and served champagne and caviar. Forgive the crude comparison, Bloodstained is nothing like that vomit-inducing restaurant, but you gather my meaning.
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 22, 2017 16:20:38 GMT -6
Most people on the Neogaf thread are actually quite positive about the game. Don't just read the haters' comments. That being said I think the most frustrating part of the negative comments is that they always just give us a generic "this looks like crap" without stating any precise reasons or suggestions on what would realistically be a better version of the thing they are criticizing. While this is a typical sign of haters being haters for no good reason I still believe that the comments should be taken into consideration by IGA and his team. They should adress the criticism and try to figure out ways to make it more appealing to these people. I say this not because I agree with the criticism but because I want Bloodstained to be successful enough to start a new era of great Igavanias. Not thinking too high of myself, but I believe the threads in this fan forum are higher in value. Not because of us being fans, but because we actually have ideas in a collected forum. Constructive feedback and polls. Those things are worth so much more than random forums. I do however see your point. Things that can be fixed for casual platform players (no Castlevania or Metroid fans included) would perhaps give the gamers this game a try that are new. But since this is a love letter, and not a casual game for everyone, I think you will help shape it to be better by giving us your thoughts. I mean this to everyone here! Be as constructive as you can, like or dislike as much as possible. The developers and IGA together with Mana have stated before again and again that they take every though into account, but at the end of the day - they will proceed as planned and how they want to express the game. So casual gamers will take part of it, but the mechanics and advancement behind the game, such as animations, battles, bosses and story will be as they have imagined since day 0. |
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Jun 22, 2017 16:41:35 GMT -6
Allow me to break down what I think a lot of the issues are:
Castlevania is a series everyone knows about but not many have actually played (a lot like, say Godzilla. Get 20 people in a room, odds are all of them will know who Godzilla is. odds are maybe 2 of them ever actually watched a Godzilla movie). It was always one of those weird niche series that had a lot of "I've heard of it" but sales were oddly dissonant in regards to their critical reception and fame. Now Bloodstained has a LOT of media attention due to its success, and a LOT of people who are criticizing it have likely never played a Castlevania game.Bloodstained actually has had a LOT more public exposure than the typical 'Vania title. This has lead to a huge crowd of people seeing typical Castlevania gameplay for the first time, especially since its been 13 years since we last got a traditional Igarashi Castlevania game. There is an entire generation of young gamers who have NEVER EVEN SEEN a classic Igarashi game outside obligatory "top 50 sidescrollers" lists. Not to mention the bevy of "Metroidvania" games we've had in recent years, with many being beloved indie darlings like Ori and the Blind Forest, Hollow Knight, Aquaria etc. IGA actually has to compete with his own legacy and fans who have gone on to make great games thanks to his road-paving.
This success is also a double edged sword for another reason: thanks to disasters like MN9 and, to a lesser extent, Yooka Laylee, people are now actively rooting against Kickstarter games. There is a general attitude of "Kickstarter is a massive gamble and anyone willing to risk it is stupid enough to get burned when the developers inevitably burn their money and goodwill and fail to keep their promises." In other words, there are a lot of people who actively WANT Bloodstained to fail just so Kickstarter itself will fail. Or even if they arent actively rooting against it, simply look at all the recent high profile bombs and controversy and think "There's no way this one will work either."
Bloodstained has a very, very hard uphill battle, and I really wish it wasnt the case.
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 22, 2017 16:57:30 GMT -6
Oh and I think this guy should join the forums: www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=241523643&postcount=120I tried to make an account but it said I had a free mail, and that site can't handle the epicness behind free e-mails so it exploded somehow and left the server-room in ruins. Too bad. I could've answered all of them with facts. Hmm. |
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Post by Yän on Jun 22, 2017 17:15:54 GMT -6
Most people on the Neogaf thread are actually quite positive about the game. Don't just read the haters' comments. That being said I think the most frustrating part of the negative comments is that they always just give us a generic "this looks like crap" without stating any precise reasons or suggestions on what would realistically be a better version of the thing they are criticizing. While this is a typical sign of haters being haters for no good reason I still believe that the comments should be taken into consideration by IGA and his team. They should adress the criticism and try to figure out ways to make it more appealing to these people. I say this not because I agree with the criticism but because I want Bloodstained to be successful enough to start a new era of great Igavanias. Not thinking too high of myself, but I believe the threads in this fan forum are higher in value. Not because of us being fans, but because we actually have ideas in a collected forum. Constructive feedback and polls. Those things are worth so much more than random forums. I do however see your point. Things that can be fixed for casual platform players (no Castlevania or Metroid fans included) would perhaps give the gamers this game a try that are new. But since this is a love letter, and not a casual game for everyone, I think you will help shape it to be better by giving us your thoughts. I mean this to everyone here! Be as constructive as you can, like or dislike as much as possible. The developers and IGA together with Mana have stated before again and again that they take every though into account, but at the end of the day - they will proceed as planned and how they want to express the game. So casual gamers will take part of it, but the mechanics and advancement behind the game, such as animations, battles, bosses and story will be as they have imagined since day 0. Yeah I definitely agree that here you will find the feedback of higher quality as we actually tend to think of ways to improve rather than just stating that we don't like something. However, if the masses say that something isn't to their liking, the masses might end up not buying the game. This could mean the end of Igavanias. I don't want that. |
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 22, 2017 17:23:04 GMT -6
Not thinking too high of myself, but I believe the threads in this fan forum are higher in value. Not because of us being fans, but because we actually have ideas in a collected forum. Constructive feedback and polls. Those things are worth so much more than random forums. I do however see your point. Things that can be fixed for casual platform players (no Castlevania or Metroid fans included) would perhaps give the gamers this game a try that are new. But since this is a love letter, and not a casual game for everyone, I think you will help shape it to be better by giving us your thoughts. I mean this to everyone here! Be as constructive as you can, like or dislike as much as possible. The developers and IGA together with Mana have stated before again and again that they take every though into account, but at the end of the day - they will proceed as planned and how they want to express the game. So casual gamers will take part of it, but the mechanics and advancement behind the game, such as animations, battles, bosses and story will be as they have imagined since day 0. Yeah I definitely agree that here you will find the feedback of higher quality as we actually tend to think of ways to improve rather than just stating that we don't like something. However, if the masses say that something isn't to their liking, the masses might end up not buying the game. This could mean the end of Igavanias. I don't want that. Nobody wants that. But.. Those that aren't buying the game once it's finished, aren't the ones the game were made for in the first place. Fans know about the game, and those that aren't are those that have seen it these past days through E3, and will hear about it once it is "out". The game already have it's standards being made and the vibe. People that haven't even played it are hyped. And those that dislike the graphics aren't much of a big deal. All this makes me feel like playing SotN again. I haven't gotten it to work on my PC, but I have it on my PsP  so I will charge that beast tonight and play tomorrow  Oh yeah. |
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 22, 2017 17:31:20 GMT -6
While some have played the DS titles, many are coming back to igavanias for the first time since SotN.
And even some who dabbled in the handheld games don't want it to be like the handheld games— they want it to play and feel like SotN.
That's the trap with pitching your game on nostalgia.
There's also the same issues that came about with Yooka-Laylee— people's expectations were wonky. They weren't driven by a desire to have a carbon copy Banjo game, they were driven by the fantasy of what they remember Banjo to be. I think this is also being applied here, SotN is 20 years old and even Order of Ecclesia is almost 10 years old.
Maybe they're used to wearing speed shoes and the like (Not sure if they're in any of the DS games or anything but there's a lot of speed boosting shoes in Harmony of Despair and the game feels unplayable to me without them now.)
So there could be a lot of factors bringing in these complaints.
SotN was also more zoomed in than the other titles too. Being closer to your character can make it seem like you're traveling faster.
Also yes, these flaws are more noticeable in a 3D environment. Animations are more committed, you can't skip frames, cancel animations, etc. as easily with 3D models without it being more noticeable. Sprites are created on a frame by frame basis and tend to be easier to tweak. I don't know the full details about that, but I remember reading a post elsewhere that went into more detail about how the 3D models can make it look more sluggish than it is.
I think a lot of people are just straight up concerned too. This is their big chance to have a game like they used to love and they want to make sure it's absolutely perfect before it's too late to make any changes.
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Post by crocodile on Jun 22, 2017 17:56:32 GMT -6
Look its really simple. I've said it before and I'll say it again - when people ask for something "from the good old days" what they are really asking more often or not is "I want something to recreate the same sort of positive emotions. feelings, gameplay, etc. but with modern sensibilities". They aren't necessarily asking for something pulled out of a time capsule. Falling back over and over again on "it was like that way in the past" may not be wrong but it has limited power. Here are things to keep in mind: - Were the old Igavanias perfect? If not do you think there is no way they could be improved? How much of Bloodstained has to be the same as previous Igavanias and how much of it can be changed for the better?
- Bloodstained should seek to bring back the good/popular parts of Castlevania and jettison the bad/unpopular parts. Which falls under which categories? That may be subjective but again the goal shouldn't be a copy + paste job!
- It's been 10 years since the last Igavania. However other developers didn't stop making Metroidvanias and players didn't stop playing them. Do you really think in those 10 years nobody has brought new ideas into the genre? That the genre has grown/evolved and player expectations haven't changed?
- Iga is free to do as he chooses but it would be in his best interest to at least be aware of what other developers have done that has been successful.
- Many of the people who backed Bloodstained or are following the campaign never played any/many of the previous Igavanias. As such, some of the elements they are seeing are indeed alien to them and can be off-putting.
- As a work in progress, some aspects of the game are going to be less than ideal. However, even with that understanding, people should be sure to speak up if they don't like something rather than shut up and hope it works out in the end.
- If you've only seen Igavania gameplay through speedruns (even those without glitches and skips) then yeah I can see how things looks slow or whatnot.
I brought this example up before but Shovel Knight is "retro" in that it pulls a lot of inspiration from classics like Ducktales, Mega Man, etc. but it has totally modern design sensibilities. I think that contributed to its success and broad appeal. As someone who hasn't played this demo, I can't say if I agree with the speed comments (though I think some of the level design comments are fair - that has rarely/never been a strong suit of Igavanias and I would hope Bloodstained can improve on that) but I see where people are coming from. Maybe some individuals are being hyperbolic but I still see and understand why some have objections and I think its important others here, who sometimes get defensive over this game, try to understand that too. |
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 23, 2017 0:14:01 GMT -6
I think a lot of what I'm specifically talking about is fans who say they have played the other games and claimed the other games weren't like this. That's not true, it's those people I'm speaking about. Not those who are new to this completely, not those who loved the old games for that time but want a modernized version.
I'm specifically talking about the confusing aspects of people who defend those old games but lay it on heavy with bloodstained. I personally don't see anything about IGA's game design that is out of date but that's just me. Could things be better? Sure, id love a game that was far less copy paste, copy and paste room design. However, what a lot of people don't get is a lot of these other metroidvania titles aren't typically packed to the brink like IGA's games are. That costs a lot of money, costs a lot of time, and if you want to play the game in a decent time frame there will be some shortcuts taken.
You are right Croc that criticism is important. I've made that point time and time again myself but I'm speaking to something entirely different.
Its the people who say:
Complainer : The level design sucks.
Defender: The level design is typically this way in igavanias.
Complainer: no, order of ecclesia had great level design.
...what?
Complainer 2: Man, Miriam looks incredibly slow and floaty.
Defender: have you played it? It feels just like how the other games.
Complainer 2: no I haven't. I know the other games and this isn't how it feltz
Defender: shows comparison.
Complainer: *jumps through hoops to keep the complaint alive.
its a willful ignorance more than anything. These aren't people saying it needs to be modernized now, it's people who say they loved how the old games felt and played but all of a sudden try to deny this feels and plays the same way. The kickstarter was pretty upfront about it being THAT type of game. So again, criticism is fine. I also think IGAVANIA games should improve their level design I've been saying that for years....
but thats not the point, the point is WHY are people ignoring and forgiving the other games and all of a sudden taking issue with this.
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Team Mom
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Oct 30, 2022 22:50:09 GMT -6
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lovelydumpling
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lovelydumpling
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 23, 2017 0:26:01 GMT -6
Yeah, Shovel Knight is a prime example for people when comparing Yooka Laylee and perhaps the Bloodstained trailers, when discussing the notion of doing Retro but improving upon it with modern understanding of game design. Luckily Iga's worked on games a little more recently than the likes of Banjo, and he's worked in the 2D gameplay space long after 2D was more or less mastered (yes there are still ways in which it can evolve, but the level of changes in the 2D space in the last 10 or even 20 years don't match that of 3D space, especially in terms of control.)
Shovel Knight did have it a bit easier though: It wasn't trying to be a direct spiritual successor. It wasn't sold on the nostalgia of a direct franchise, just games from the era in general. They also weren't trying to revive gameplay styles they themselves pioneered. All in all while it was reminiscent of the style, it was still their very own brand new game, so they still had a lot of freedom with what they did with it. It just had to look and feel retro. It didn't have to look and feel and play like "Mega-Man" or "Banjo" or "Castlevania."
I think when you start making modern day spiritual successors of decade old titles, that becomes a lot harder. It becomes more difficult to take a step back and look at the bigger picture to see the inherent flaws in your old work and how you'd update to the modern age. It tends to be more along the lines of what they would have added 10 years ago to a typical sequel. (I.e. Bloodstained's omnidirectional spells.) Especially when you're specifically selling it on the concept of like "It's like the old games!" Not only is it hard to figure out how to expand this, but I think it's also hard to gauge the line of what you can change, caught between wanting to improve the title and wanting to keep faithful to the fans who funded your project based on the old ways.
Which I guess begs the question: What sort of things would the fans be okay with? If we drastically changed the movement style of Bloodstained to modernize it, it might not feel like Castlevania anymore. It might feel objectively better to those who didn't grow up with Castlevania, but would us backers be okay with something like that?
Iga's got a lot of pressure on his hands to make the best game he can while also keeping as faithful as possible to what his backers expect from this.
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I think a lot of the negativity happens on page 2 and 3.
so I will charge that beast tonight and play tomorrow 
Oh yeah.
