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Post by EmoCochino on Jun 15, 2017 6:08:02 GMT -6
I did a breakdown and analysis of the Trailer, Interview, and the gameplay
If anyone is interested in watching
I also have them broken up into 3 separate parts on the videos page
If you like please consider following
Thank you
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Post by Galamoth on Jun 15, 2017 9:45:06 GMT -6
"church of dian cecht" Dian Cecht - In Irish Mythology he was the god of healing. Good catch. This church area in Gebel's Castle may [or may not] feature healing waters (now there's an idea!). Maybe that's what Bloodless was bathing in before the fight against her (to try to "heal" herself). |
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 15, 2017 9:51:06 GMT -6
I did a breakdown and analysis of the Trailer, Interview, and the gameplay
If anyone is interested in watching
I also have them broken up into 3 separate parts on the videos page
If you like please consider following
Thank you Nice video, I don't agree with your assessment that she should be quicker in all ways but we all know my thoughts on that by now  Interview with IGA below with our fearless leader Mana ! Doing great work Mana! Also this comparison video should always be posted when people claim the old IGAVANIA's weren't that slow or floaty. A comparison showing one of the most popular IGA games being an exact replica of Bloodstained. |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 15, 2017 10:59:26 GMT -6
Well, that comparison video shows that Alucard's jumps and attacks are indeed faster, at least compared to the old build. Miriam's attacks in the interview video for example look faster than before, though.
I think she may still be marginally slower than Alucard, but it's not really a problem for me. I'd be fine with them speeding it up slightly, just not a sticking point.
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Post by Yän on Jun 15, 2017 11:39:16 GMT -6
So I love the Bloodless fight, I think it's got some really creative attack patterns and themes and especially the Blood Rain attack stood out to me because of the double-use of the umbrellas as they'd formerly hurt you but now protect you.
However, I just noticed how utterly inconsequential this particular mechanic is as the HP punishment for getting hit by the Blood Rain sits at a laughable 1 or 2. That's just not enough to motivate me to make use of the clever mechanic they put in.
I remember the Russalka fight in Order of Ecclesia which had a similar mechanic. The Maelstrom attack would just wreck you if you got hit. That made the cover much more valuable and I ended up being very careful to always keep at least one of the cover elements up.
I'd love to see a more substantial punishment for the Blood Rain. Who's with me?
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 15, 2017 12:02:29 GMT -6
Well, that comparison video shows that Alucard's jumps and attacks are indeed faster, at least compared to the old build. Miriam's attacks in the interview video for example look faster than before, though. I think she may still be marginally slower than Alucard, but it's not really a problem for me. I'd be fine with them speeding it up slightly, just not a sticking point. Are you sure it's not because she jumps higher up than he does? It looks like she gets higher therefore takes longer to hit the ground. Either way they're both pretty dang close it might not be exact 1:1 but it's close enough that the criticism of it seems odd. I think this particular issue irks me because Igavania games have a feel to them and when playing the original demo it captured the feel perfectly ( enough for Romscout to praise the crap out of it ). When you make her faster and take away the floaty feel it starts to change the experience into something it never was. After all we are here for an IGAVANIA game. This style and the feel of this character is very IGAVANIA. Yän I completely agree about the Bloodless fight. More than anything I think her animations are freakin' awesome. I love how she runs up and splashes the blood up at you, I love how she makes it rain blood, and even her blood umbrella weapon is very cool looking. It's the type of boss battle I was hoping for out of this game. Really solid concept ( blood for clothes) and really well designed battle. |
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 15, 2017 13:38:58 GMT -6
CastleDan as i said before, i think people says Bloodstained is slow exactly because it mirrors Symphony of the Night, a game with a 20 years old gameplay style that IGA never really wanted to update too much. I'm okay with that, because i really love how Igavania games feel. That is what we wanted. That is what we are getting. Yän i agree with you. All Bloodless attacks are punishing, with the single exception being Blood Rain.
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Post by Busterific on Jun 15, 2017 14:00:28 GMT -6
Is it just me, or in some of the tower areas in these new videos does Miriams shadow seem to appear in unusual locations?
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 15, 2017 14:22:33 GMT -6
CastleDan as i said before, i think people says Bloodstained is slow exactly because it mirrors Symphony of the Night, a game with a 20 years old gameplay style that IGA never really wanted to update too much. I'm okay with that, because i really love how Igavania games feel. That is what we wanted. That is what we are getting. Yän i agree with you. All Bloodless attacks are punishing, with the single exception being Blood Rain. I know but I've responded to that. All his games are the same way, and a lot of these people are claiming to be fans of HIS games. I'm gonna use an example. Let's say Ed Boon got fired and he started a spirtual successor to Mortal Kombat. As a fan of Mortal Kombat I'm not gonna complain that the animations of his spirtual successor aren't smooth enough, or the blood effects are too ridiculous and over the top. That's the type of games he makes. The animations are purposely stiff, the blood is purposely over the top. It doesn't matter how 'old' the games are it's his style. If you want a persons style that's what you're getting. So with IGA you get slower moving characters and floaty movement, and as the game progresses your character gets speed upgrades. That's been an aspect of all his games it's not a ... '20 year old' function it's his style. A style that all these people who claimed to be excited he's back have loved from any number of his other games but choose to complain now. People expect IGA to make an un-IGA game. They want the visuals to look like Ori when that's not the IGA art style, they want the movement to be quick and twitchy which is nothing like IGA's animations or movements. Do you look at a Strider game and go man the character is too quick they need to give it a more realistic sense of weight? No, because that's not the style of those games. Now if we are talking about the animations not making the translation to 3D well and they need to be improved so it looks better at this speed than that's a different story entirely. If we were talking about new people who haven't touched or played IGA games before again that'd be different. I'm talking about hardcore IGA fans complaining about IGA consciously making this game feel like his other games. He's not modernizing or aping someone elses style it's been obvious since day 1 that he's making a game like his other games because they've been gone for a while. Don't take my long rant personally I'm just incredibly stubborn when it comes to this specific element more so than anything else. Playing the demo it felt like I was playing one of IGA's games. To me that's a success not a failure, and I certainly don't want it ruined and to feel like some other game. Sorry for my long rant. I love going in circles with people.....CIRCLE LIKE A MOON THAT IS  |
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Post by Ciel on Jun 15, 2017 14:24:02 GMT -6
Is it just me, or in some of the tower areas in these new videos does Miriams shadow seem to appear in unusual locations? You aren't wrong, see:  Source: (same video that someone posted here few pages ago). The lightning is to blame for that. |
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Post by Goobsausage on Jun 15, 2017 14:46:39 GMT -6
The most common issue I've seen with Bloodstained outside the forums is that Miriam moves too slow or too much like Alucard in SOTN. I'm all for letting IGA make the game he wants to make, but if it's possible/feasible at this point in development and he's open to feedback from this year's E3 demo, I'd like to see Miriam's default speed and movement increased in order to appeal to wider audiences and keep up with modern gaming standards.
I know fans are defending the movement as it is now ("it's just like SOTN", "it's an IGA game", "the older Castlevanias played like that too", "this article is wrong, the controls don't feel too floaty, they feel perfect", "this is exactly what they pitched on the Kickstarter"), mostly here on the forums, but it's making me think about how Yooka-Laylee was considered too much like the games that inspired it, met with a resounding "meh, it was okay", and not a lot of people really liked it outside of those who backed it. It feels like we're heading towards a "be careful what you wish for" situation.
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Post by Goobsausage on Jun 15, 2017 14:54:22 GMT -6
CastleDan as i said before, i think people says Bloodstained is slow exactly because it mirrors Symphony of the Night, a game with a 20 years old gameplay style that IGA never really wanted to update too much. I'm okay with that, because i really love how Igavania games feel. That is what we wanted. That is what we are getting. Yän i agree with you. All Bloodless attacks are punishing, with the single exception being Blood Rain. I know but I've responded to that. All his games are the same way, and a lot of these people are claiming to be fans of HIS games. I'm gonna use an example. Let's say Ed Boon got fired and he started a spirtual successor to Mortal Kombat. As a fan of Mortal Kombat I'm not gonna complain that the animations of his spirtual successor aren't smooth enough, or the blood effects are too ridiculous and over the top. That's the type of games he makes. The animations are purposely stiff, the blood is purposely over the top. It doesn't matter how 'old' the games are it's his style. If you want a persons style that's what you're getting. So with IGA you get slower moving characters and floaty movement, and as the game progresses your character gets speed upgrades. That's been an aspect of all his games it's not a ... '20 year old' function it's his style. A style that all these people who claimed to be excited he's back have loved from any number of his other games but choose to complain now. People expect IGA to make an un-IGA game. They want the visuals to look like Ori when that's not the IGA art style, they want the movement to be quick and twitchy which is nothing like IGA's animations or movements. Do you look at a Strider game and go man the character is too quick they need to give it a more realistic sense of weight? No, because that's not the style of those games. Now if we are talking about the animations not making the translation to 3D well and they need to be improved so it looks better at this speed than that's a different story entirely. If we were talking about new people who haven't touched or played IGA games before again that'd be different. I'm talking about hardcore IGA fans complaining about IGA consciously making this game feel like his other games. He's not modernizing or aping someone elses style it's been obvious since day 1 that he's making a game like his other games because they've been gone for a while. Don't take my long rant personally I'm just incredibly stubborn when it comes to this specific element more so than anything else. Playing the demo it felt like I was playing one of IGA's games. To me that's a success not a failure, and I certainly don't want it ruined and to feel like some other game. Sorry for my long rant. I love going in circles with people.....CIRCLE LIKE A MOON THAT IS People can make different types of games in different styles and it'll still be "their" games because they're the ones making it, though. Art/media doesn't have to adhere to a certain specific formula. Ed Boon made different styles of games (2D, 3D, tag team, crossover, platformer spinoff) and they're still "his" games. If IGA changes anything from his old games in Bloodstained, it'll still be an IGA game because he's the one making it. |
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 15, 2017 15:39:25 GMT -6
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Post by Yän on Jun 15, 2017 15:48:02 GMT -6
This is a dilemma isn't it? On one hand I really like Bloodstained the way it plays right now, on the other hand I really want Bloodstained to become a long living franchise.
Maybe the running speed can be solved with animation only though - no change in gameplay.
See, if the animation would just be sped up and otherwise kept as it is, we'd have the issue of her feet sliding over the ground. However, if she'd cover less ground with each step because she makes smaller steps, she'd have to move her legs faster to run at the same speed, thus creating the illusion of a faster run.
I think that would be the first thing that I'd try if I was them.
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Jun 15, 2017 15:59:13 GMT -6
Not to say they are the same people making the arguments. There are those that want it to be like Dark Souls which is one of the most slow paced games out there. Then there are those out there saying it's too slow. I don't have a point per say with this, I thought it was interesting.
I do remember earlier suggesting that Miriam run like Ajna(Indivisible) in terms of animations, but that may be too fast as one person pointed out. That was before I tried the demo myself and feeling it was just right. I think that might be the solution. Give people a demo to try and see what comes of it. If they still say the same thing, then patch it later if it doesn't change when the game comes out.
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 15, 2017 16:27:25 GMT -6
Well, that comparison video shows that Alucard's jumps and attacks are indeed faster, at least compared to the old build. Miriam's attacks in the interview video for example look faster than before, though. I think she may still be marginally slower than Alucard, but it's not really a problem for me. I'd be fine with them speeding it up slightly, just not a sticking point. Alucards attack is fast because he has end-game weapon with superb attackspeed. This weapon was gone by Death early on, remember? The one in the video is fast, I see that. But I think many of Miriams weapons are based on weight as well So the attack isn't entirely fair. I am also looking forward to her dash / sprint forward ^^ |
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 15, 2017 16:28:43 GMT -6
The most common issue I've seen with Bloodstained outside the forums is that Miriam moves too slow or too much like Alucard in SOTN. I'm all for letting IGA make the game he wants to make, but if it's possible/feasible at this point in development and he's open to feedback from this year's E3 demo, I'd like to see Miriam's default speed and movement increased in order to appeal to wider audiences and keep up with modern gaming standards. I know fans are defending the movement as it is now ("it's just like SOTN", "it's an IGA game", "the older Castlevanias played like that too", "this article is wrong, the controls don't feel too floaty, they feel perfect", "this is exactly what they pitched on the Kickstarter"), mostly here on the forums, but it's making me think about how Yooka-Laylee was considered too much like the games that inspired it, met with a resounding "meh, it was okay", and not a lot of people really liked it outside of those who backed it. It feels like we're heading towards a "be careful what you wish for" situation. I know but I've responded to that. All his games are the same way, and a lot of these people are claiming to be fans of HIS games. I'm gonna use an example. Let's say Ed Boon got fired and he started a spirtual successor to Mortal Kombat. As a fan of Mortal Kombat I'm not gonna complain that the animations of his spirtual successor aren't smooth enough, or the blood effects are too ridiculous and over the top. That's the type of games he makes. The animations are purposely stiff, the blood is purposely over the top. It doesn't matter how 'old' the games are it's his style. If you want a persons style that's what you're getting. So with IGA you get slower moving characters and floaty movement, and as the game progresses your character gets speed upgrades. That's been an aspect of all his games it's not a ... '20 year old' function it's his style. A style that all these people who claimed to be excited he's back have loved from any number of his other games but choose to complain now. People expect IGA to make an un-IGA game. They want the visuals to look like Ori when that's not the IGA art style, they want the movement to be quick and twitchy which is nothing like IGA's animations or movements. Do you look at a Strider game and go man the character is too quick they need to give it a more realistic sense of weight? No, because that's not the style of those games. Now if we are talking about the animations not making the translation to 3D well and they need to be improved so it looks better at this speed than that's a different story entirely. If we were talking about new people who haven't touched or played IGA games before again that'd be different. I'm talking about hardcore IGA fans complaining about IGA consciously making this game feel like his other games. He's not modernizing or aping someone elses style it's been obvious since day 1 that he's making a game like his other games because they've been gone for a while. Don't take my long rant personally I'm just incredibly stubborn when it comes to this specific element more so than anything else. Playing the demo it felt like I was playing one of IGA's games. To me that's a success not a failure, and I certainly don't want it ruined and to feel like some other game. Sorry for my long rant. I love going in circles with people.....CIRCLE LIKE A MOON THAT IS People can make different types of games in different styles and it'll still be "their" games because they're the ones making it, though. Art/media doesn't have to adhere to a certain specific formula. Ed Boon made different styles of games (2D, 3D, tag team, crossover, platformer spinoff) and they're still "his" games. If IGA changes anything from his old games in Bloodstained, it'll still be an IGA game because he's the one making it. You're right the same people can make different styles and it's still their game. However, my point with Ed Boon is that his Mortal Kombat games no matter what year it is all have a similar feel. He doesn't conform to how modern fighters feel, he does it his way. People know what to expect when they buy a Mortal Kombat game, it has stiff animations with over the top ridiculous gore. That's his trademark style. IGA has his own style, and his own set of rules as Mana has once told us when people criticized the size of her character in accordance to the world around her. They've addressed these qualms people keep mentioning, these are intentional moves to capture the feel of all their other games. Maybe it's odd to people seeing the actions they've seen in 2d now in 3d but it's largely the same exact feeling. Maybe more people need to get their hands on it instead of judging from videos? I know from reading critics impressions of the game it's all been quite glowing so far. It's just annoying to me knowing how his games have always felt and people acting like it never felt that way and saying they need to change it to how 'other' sidescrollers on the market feel. This isn't like those games and it doesn't need to be. IGA has to IGA folks. Let him IGA. If IGA decides to take away the floaty feel and make Miriam quick by all means that's his choice but he's NAILING the feel of this game and it pains me to see people trying to change it into something else. Hell we already saw a spring function maybe people need to spread these little tidbits around more. Also it's not just SOTN, his other games were also floaty and slow.....hell Order Of Ecclesia looked/felt slower than even Sotn. Okay, I'm done for the day.....I'm gonna continue to hope and pray they don't alter a good thing too much. Just to clarify I don't take issue with what you Goobsausage or Pure Miriam say. You two are being more understanding , I'm taking the route of saying IGA should make the game he intended to make originally if that means mimicking his 2d games in 2.5d then cool. It's worked for him before and I imagine it'll work for him now once people have it in their own hands. |
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jun 15, 2017 16:51:40 GMT -6
Pure Miriam Yes, but the candelabras that contained the necessary skills for exploration in Aria of Sorrow were still obtained after boss fights, so I don't count those. The only ability souls that WEREN'T boss completion necessary were the Kicker Skeleton, Hypogryph, and Grave Keeper, all of which were not necessary to beat the game. Skeleton Blaze I suppose was a necessary one, though... Hmm.
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Post by fatihG on Jun 15, 2017 17:15:39 GMT -6
Is it just me, or in some of the tower areas in these new videos does Miriams shadow seem to appear in unusual locations? You aren't wrong, see: Source: (same video that someone posted here few pages ago). The lightning is to blame for that. The thing with Shadows in games are that they are relatively expensive computation wise. So what they did here is to use a single directional light for the shadow casting only. This way the game is a bit more optimized. This is a dilemma isn't it? On one hand I really like Bloodstained the way it plays right now, on the other hand I really want Bloodstained to become a long living franchise. Maybe the running speed can be solved with animation only though - no change in gameplay. See, if the animation would just be sped up and otherwise kept as it is, we'd have the issue of her feet sliding over the ground. However, if she'd cover less ground with each step because she makes smaller steps, she'd have to move her legs faster to run at the same speed, thus creating the illusion of a faster run. I think that would be the first thing that I'd try if I was them. It could very well be that the opposite is true, if you slow down the animation, while still keeping the same movement speed, it could appear that she is moving faster because she is covering more space using less actions. Kind of like the Forest scene in SotN where Alucard speedwalks. Though the afterimages help with the sensation of speed as well. That being said if they did do something like that I assume allot of people will complain that her animations look slower... either way someone will complain =P Save |
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 15, 2017 17:40:59 GMT -6
CastleDan i know, and i agree with you. I wanted a Igavania game. As far as i'm seeing, that's exactly what i'm getting. Everyone that backed this game wanted a Igavania game. And everyone is getting what they wanted. I'm satisfied with all i've seen at this moment. LeoLeWolferoux Well, yeah, more or less. Some of them are obtained a bit after the boss, not imediatelly after, requiring a bit of exploration. But anyways, my point there was that, it is most probably that the chests and candlesticks placements are just to show off things of the demo.
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