Dengojin
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Post by Dengojin on May 23, 2017 19:13:16 GMT -6
According to Koji Igarashi, Bloodstained is only 20 to 30% complete and that could mean anything to be honest. Many people in the internet including some fellow backers were jumping the gun and thinking the game will not be able to meet it's current release window before they even understand or think about the game development stages. So how many stages does a game need to take before it reach the Gold Master version ? the answer is MANY and each stage takes a different period than the other, for example the prototype stage is what takes most of the time to get past ( which is basically what was the E3 from last year is ) after the alpha build they will start with the main production stage which is the main stage of development, when assets and source code for the game are produced, when developers finish the assets from art, music, models to sound etc... all these assets will be given to the game designers to develop the game's design throughout production which can make a huge precentage jump. But not many developers talk about the progression they made before they make it to the first playable version, because they know how people will judge right away, but we are talking about a Kickstarted game here, backers must be informed every now and then about the progression to reassure the fans that the game is being made and it will eventually make it to the final product, not many people understand it and we don't have to write a wall of text to explain it for every single person who is trying to be negative for whatever reason, when they show the playable version it will shut them down. I'm just putting this here as a reminder and I hope it help some people here to understand the situation better, I'm not one of the developers or trying to be smart, hell. I might be wrong, but this is what my stay with a certain game developer taught me at least. Bloodstained will be a full game whether if it meets the early 2018 release window or not, I have faith in IGA.  |
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on May 23, 2017 20:18:19 GMT -6
Good points Dengojin, I also made a similar one over at the CV Dungeon. But I do think it's important Bloodstained comes out in a timely fashion. Aside from the fact that we can't wait to see all the awesome stuff IGA has in store for us, we also need to respect the fact that many backers put a lot of money into the project. The longer it takes, the more stressed out a backer will be, because if they spent 500 on Bloodstained when it was first announced, that's 500 dollars they could have spent on something else--I've known folks who forewent cars or house payments to support a KS project! XD So I think we do have an obligation to ensure they get their bang for their buck on time, or at least as close as we can make it  |
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Mana
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Post by Mana on May 23, 2017 23:13:41 GMT -6
We are still aiming for the early 2018 release, no question about it. 20-30% completion rate is a rough estimate and it's about how much the game is complete as a whole. What we're currently experiencing is incomplete game systems and manual implementation of certain features prioritized for the E3 demos. When the game system is complete, we could start mass-producing game features such as the enemies, items, weapons, shards, etc to implement into the game. It is true that our progress is still slow and we need to pick up our pace from here. Once these core systems are in, our progress will speed up massively. Note that the percentage also doesn't include materials that are already made, but not in game yet. Here's an example that may be easier to picture. Lets say the game system we're currently working on is the weapon system. Weapon system is 100% complete when the player is able to choose 1 weapon from each category such as the sword, whip, gun, mace, etc., and make sure that they are able to use it correctly in the game. This includes a system that allows us to easily add additional 100+ weapons from a developer's point of view. It also needs to be accessible by new programmers. When the system is incomplete, new items are added manually and take a very long time. At the moment, there are only couple of weapons and mass production can only be done by 1-2 high level programmers. Right now we are focusing on completing the game system, maximize efficiency, and then speed up the adding progress using more manpower. As a small disclaimer, the top explanation is purely for example on how incomplete game system makes it difficult for us to implement new contents and does not represent the current production status. I wish I could explain this better but since I am not a developer, this may not accurately explain the exact process. TL;DR - Don't worry, we're still aiming early 2018 release and the process will speed up once we get the core system down. There are ups and downs in the production, but I also have faith in the team. I hope the best for Bloodstained's smooth release |
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Post by CastleDan on May 23, 2017 23:50:23 GMT -6
Thanks Mana, I appreciate you taking the time to explain these things.
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Post by chocolatestain on May 23, 2017 23:54:27 GMT -6
I'm not worried about the development time. I think people that are worried are really out of touch with just how much work goes into making even the most mediocre games. Bloodstained is going to be epic in more ways than one. I hope the team is satisfied with what they've done by the set release and if they aren't, then I want them to take any extra time they need. It just doesn't faze me one bit. I wish anyone who's feeling a little ansty would just chill and let them do their thing.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on May 24, 2017 0:02:24 GMT -6
Heh I've already posted Mana's explanation like 4 places to counter the OH NOES Facebook shares I've seen. I encourage you guys to do the same if you see some manner of misunderstanding pop up.
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Post by demiurgos on May 24, 2017 1:07:05 GMT -6
Note that the percentage also doesn't include materials that are already made, but not in game yet. This particular statement shines a whole new light upon the estimated progress. Thank you for the clarification, Mana! |
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on May 24, 2017 1:42:02 GMT -6
I talked with Mana before at the shout box, and i think a gross paralel can be made with the RPG Maker. For those who don't know it, RPG Maker is a progam that let you create your own 2d RPG, without knowing too much of programming. RPG Maker has something called "Database" where all assets go. Enemies, equipments, skills, characters, tilesets (sets to build maps), items, menu, and basically, the main structure of the game. Most RPG Maker creators, work in the database first, before going to the game. If you simply work at the database and the game (maps and events) at the same time, you lose a ton of time and progress. So, most RPG Maker creators start by creating all the basic items, weapons, armors, calculate the math behind their stats progression and enemies and everything else before even creating the game's first map. It is not the same, but i think this is what Mana is saying. The game systems is a paralel to RPG Maker's Database. You need to have the system ready and, from there, everything becames easier to do. So, it is hard to estimate a game's development when you are at the game system phase, because you normally don't have too much of what the player will actually interact with (maps and events) ready. You are working at the whole background (weapons, enemies, powers and the systems that governs those things) first, to make your own work easier later on. As Mana said, after creating the weapon system, any developer can create a hundred weapons in a flash, because the system to create and use them is ready. And that is the same for items, shards and everything else. Mana even said that the percentage doesn't include materials that are already made, but not in the game yet, exactly as i said about RPG Maker and it's databse. You create 100 weapons on it, and that takes quite a bit of time. Adding them at the game later on is much faster as you progress at the game creation itself. I don' tknow if i am all right too, but i think this is a good paralel. |
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Post by neff on May 24, 2017 8:40:28 GMT -6
I had been wondering whether it would be presumptuous to ask via email, but that does make a lot of sense. The groundwork of the database and numbers is important to lay down and get right, otherwise you spend a lot of time tearing through prior work to fix it.
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Post by kronfarfar on May 24, 2017 8:58:43 GMT -6
Heh I've already posted Mana's explanation like 4 places to counter the OH NOES Facebook shares I've seen. I encourage you guys to do the same if you see some manner of misunderstanding pop up. That's awesome! There's been so much negativity about the 20-30% quote from people who now suddenly compares this to MN9. Great that Mana came here to explain how it really is and kudos to you to purify! |
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Post by DSLevantine on May 24, 2017 10:32:03 GMT -6
""No one will remember if the game is late, only if it's great""
while I don't like jay wilson, I completely agree with his statement above.
Grim dawn delayed for a few years and the dev still fulfilled their promise and delivered a great game. I will say it is too early to judge Iga.
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Post by CastleDan on May 24, 2017 10:39:30 GMT -6
Still wish they were doing staggered release, the only thing that ever truly mattered to me was the main game to begin with. To think that might be held back longer because of extra modes bums me out.  |
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Post by chocolatestain on May 24, 2017 11:03:06 GMT -6
Still wish they were doing staggered release, the only thing that ever truly mattered to me was the main game to begin with. To think that might be held back longer because of extra modes bums me out. I could be wrong, but I thought there was a thread here clarifying that at least some of the extra modes were getting developed after the main release. |
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Post by Kitti_W on May 24, 2017 11:30:10 GMT -6
30%? So only 170.6% to go! XD
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on May 24, 2017 11:32:38 GMT -6
Mana made a comment in Shoutbox once that was blown out of proportion about a staggered release. Ben Judd explained how the 505 Games would probably prefer a complete release when he was a guest on the podcast.
Until an update comes out that specifically changes the rollout of content, expect no staggered content.
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Galamoth
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Post by Galamoth on May 24, 2017 11:51:42 GMT -6
I remain a proponent of the staggered content approach, but I'll also remain supportive and understanding if it doesn't end up that way.
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on May 24, 2017 11:58:06 GMT -6
ive made spreadsheet checklists for rpgs and character sheets before i learned a bit of coding in college, and while its version of coding is miniscule against the amount of juggling and balancing the dev team has coding all these things so they not only work by themselves but also work as a whole, i can say that once the team gets the frameworks in place and working smoothly youre going to see that number jump as major modules that pull from a lot of things like enemy scripting and databases that a lot of things pull from like enemy/weapon/armor statistics get into a workable state
fun fact before that devs often have placeholder items for testing purposes (like the ones mana mentioned) and often these stay in the game because they are coded in so early that things implemented later pull from their code and removing them will actually break that code (for example in ff14 theres an item from 1.0 called a company-issued expectorant that you cannot get any more normally, but if it were removed from the code the raise spell would not work without a complete rewrite that could possibly break other things because that effect is tied to code that relies on that item being there, so they left it in and you can actually get one still through another piece of code left in that governs what retainers can bring you pulling from a list that includes some 1.0 items like the summoners horn headgear)
the houlihan room in lttp is a similar test room that actually works as a catch in case the game loses track of where you are and you then load in a new map, instead of crashing it defaults to what is probably map 0 in the code
to hear that 20-30% is estimated to be done already, im excited actually
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on May 24, 2017 16:30:54 GMT -6
30%? So only 170.6% to go! XD The Snowball-effect: Metaphorically, a snowball effect is a process that starts from an initial state of small significance and builds upon itself. Both mass and speed are gained. In our case. Once the buildingblocks, caramel-maps, items, animations are all done together with a system that can import and export as well as make changes, things will become faster from start to finish. Each set having each one or many small goals. Once that goal have been reached, a new % is added to the sum. And remember, even if the game might be 100% done, it still have more than 100% in it with modes and exciting areas to explore, random generated environments and a nice story to get back into. 20% is really A LOT, and I would say this is based on character and enemies, features and powers. I believe the areas are the ones that take most of the time, especially when they have their own theme and perhaps even lore behind them. |
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Post by RichterB on May 25, 2017 14:05:54 GMT -6
Here's something interesting to keep in mind from back in the day: There was an article that said as of January 1998, Castlevania 64 was roughly only 10% complete. So, 90% to go, right? Well, that's a quick turnaround for what would end up a January 1999 release for the game. (Admittedly, a lot of things were cut from the final build, but it was still a complete, cohesive game.)
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on May 25, 2017 18:41:45 GMT -6
Here's something interesting to keep in mind from back in the day: There was an article that said as of January 1998, Castlevania 64 was roughly only 10% complete. So, 90% to go, right? Well, that's a quick turnaround for what would end up a January 1999 release for the game. (Admittedly, a lot of things were cut from the final build, but it was still a complete, cohesive game.) What if.. The areas are made. Now they will implement features? Say like.. You can run from start to finish, if platforms are added to actually finish it all without having too much stuff surrounding it. In my mind, that is pretty much! And we haven't got any words on how big this castle is yet, have we? It would be nice to know how much bigger it is from Symphony of the Night. Thats a number I would be interested in knowing, even with 0,05%. |
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