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Post by djtanng on Jul 12, 2016 19:13:00 GMT -6
I mean after all, Konami can't copy-write Death can they?
Would you like to see Death return?
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 12, 2016 19:24:26 GMT -6
in my opinion, yes... Death is not owned by konami (<-- I refuse to capitalize their name anymore, they are dead to me lol). but maybe Death being the emissary or right hand of Dracula might be, so I think as long as Death is not Gebel's number 2 they should be fine...
But yeah I want death in Bloodstained too... though it would be better if Death was a hidden boss that was more lost then wanting to fight... I personally don't want Death to be controlled by anyone he/she is their own entity.
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Post by crocodile on Jul 12, 2016 19:25:11 GMT -6
Are you asking if Death as a character/monster is in the public domain? One look at popular media should answer that question Below is one of my favorite versions of Death: In serious, non-snarky terms, I'd have no qualms with Death's return but it would have to be in an incarnation never seen before in the Castlevania series for maximum differentiation. So no skeleton dude in black robes with a scythe that has some wacky second form. What Bloodstained's version of Death would or should look like isn't obvious to me. Death has been a woman a few times in fiction but never in Castlevania - that itself would be a differentiation point from Castlevania and I think would be a popular avenue for Bloodstained to explore. Maybe the ending of the game has Miriam becoming the ultimate demon -Death! I dunno, I'm just spitballin' ideas
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 12, 2016 19:36:17 GMT -6
Are you asking if Death as a character/monster is in the public domain? One look at popular media should answer that question Below is one of my favorite versions of Death: In serious, non-snarky terms, I'd have no qualms with Death's return but it would have to be in an incarnation never seen before in the Castlevania series for maximum differentiation. So no skeleton dude in black robes with a scythe that has some wacky second form. What Bloodstained's version of Death would or should look like isn't obvious to me. Death has been a woman a few times in fiction but never in Castlevania - that itself would be a differentiation point from Castlevania and I think would be a popular avenue for Bloodstained to explore. Maybe the ending of the game has Miriam becoming the ultimate demon -Death! I dunno, I'm just spitballin' ideas like a lady or a gentleman, that invites you to high tea, and tries to take your soul? or a little girl that wants you to play with her... I would mind seeing a different take on Death, though the "skeleton cloaked in shadows" form would be fine with me. But I would like seeing a La Muerte version of Death... but she is kind of a good guy, maybe she just "tests" Miriam and her skills.
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BloodyTears92
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Jul 12, 2016 19:38:58 GMT -6
One of the familiars that lost pretty much was the classic Castlevania Death, so yeah they could easily put some interpretation of Death in the game.
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Post by asterra on Jul 12, 2016 19:42:17 GMT -6
Death, Dracula, Alucard et al could all be used in Bloodstained as long as they didn't look too similar to a Konami iteration without precedent (for example, I think they'd be safe with any appearance for Dracula or Death, but probably not so with Alucard). Just look at Buer.
But this topic does touch upon one of my concerns with Bloodstained: the idea that the folks involved in making this game may shy away from certain creative avenues, either because of a desire to be different or because they specifically want to avoid comparisons, for critical or legal reasons. For example, Michiru Yamane may end up making an entire soundtrack that doesn't have a single Toccata-and-Fugue-esque organ melody (or maybe no organs at all), even though it would still be perfect for the gothic setting, just because that's how it was done in Castlevania.
I'd be pretty happy if I learned that Bloodstained will feature Death at some point - ideally as a sort of second-in-command. I think that would be a nice message to Konami.
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Post by asterra on Jul 12, 2016 19:43:06 GMT -6
One of the familiars that lost pretty much was the classic Castlevania Death, so yeah they could easily put some interpretation of Death in the game. Thank you for reminding me that my familiar of choice lost. I still really hope she makes it in, somehow.
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Post by crocodile on Jul 12, 2016 20:10:17 GMT -6
Death, Dracula, Alucard et al could all be used in Bloodstained as long as they didn't look too similar to a Konami iteration without precedent (for example, I think they'd be safe with any appearance for Dracula or Death, but probably not so with Alucard). Just look at Buer. But this topic does touch upon one of my concerns with Bloodstained: the idea that the folks involved in making this game may shy away from certain creative avenues, either because of a desire to be different or because they specifically want to avoid comparisons, for critical or legal reasons. For example, Michiru Yamane may end up making an entire soundtrack that doesn't have a single Toccata-and-Fugue-esque organ melody (or maybe no organs at all), even though it would still be perfect for the gothic setting, just because that's how it was done in Castlevania. I'd be pretty happy if I learned that Bloodstained will feature Death at some point - ideally as a sort of second-in-command. I think that would be a nice message to Konami. I mean I think its less a fear of legal repercussion and more a desire for creative freedom. I mean obviously everyone here wants a Castlevania like experience but, when given free reign, if the absolute best they can do is regurgitate the exact same antagonists, etc. from the previous series, that's disappointing from both the producers side and from the consumers side. That's why Iga isn't using Dracula - not because he's remotely afraid Konami will bother him but because he wants to do something different. He's completely free of the Castlevania baggage and timeline. This is the ideal time for him, or anyone else on the team, to stretch their creative wings. As an aside, while I think its likely Yamane wants to avoid recomposing say "A Lost Painting", I think fears she might avoid a particular instrument or type of instrument border on paranoia and hyperbole. Like just c'mon son!
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Post by asterra on Jul 12, 2016 20:32:04 GMT -6
That's why Iga isn't using Dracula - not because he's remotely afraid Konami will bother him but because he wants to do something different. He's completely free of the Castlevania baggage and timeline. This is the ideal time for him, or anyone else on the team, to stretch their creative wings. Yes and no. Sure, in the case of Dracula, since that character is far too emblematic of Castlevania ("Akumajou Dracula"), but the likes of Death should still be in the cards. Using a character or setting that already exists in the popular conscience in a way that befits your intended framework lends the effort the stamp of legitimacy - certainly moreso than if you go out of your way to create everything from scratch. Iga certainly knows this, which is why he has set the game in a specific, preexisting country, designated the main castle as having come from "hell", and even toyed with the idea of framing the plot as being the result of a certain historical Icelandic volcano eruption. He also did not invent the pseudoscience of alchemy. Iga could introduce Death as a much more meaningful presence than simply the boss leading up to the game's finale. As an aside, while I think its likely Yamane wants to avoid recomposing say "A Lost Painting", I think fears she might avoid a particular instrument or type of instrument border on paranoia and hyperbole. Like just c'mon son! I can either voice my concerns now or hope for the best and kick myself later. And I don't think that particular example was much of a stretch. An organ's going to lend itself to basically two things: sustained chords, and the Toccata and Fugue-like thing we hear in every Castlevania game. If Yamane elects to use an organ, one or both of those will happen, and it will conjure comparisons with Castlevania whether that was the intent or not. Therefore there is the risk that we won't get any.
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Post by Saint Germain on Jul 12, 2016 21:34:03 GMT -6
Are you asking if Death as a character/monster is in the public domain? One look at popular media should answer that question Below is one of my favorite versions of Death: In serious, non-snarky terms, I'd have no qualms with Death's return but it would have to be in an incarnation never seen before in the Castlevania series for maximum differentiation. So no skeleton dude in black robes with a scythe that has some wacky second form. What Bloodstained's version of Death would or should look like isn't obvious to me. Death has been a woman a few times in fiction but never in Castlevania - that itself would be a differentiation point from Castlevania and I think would be a popular avenue for Bloodstained to explore. Maybe the ending of the game has Miriam becoming the ultimate demon -Death! I dunno, I'm just spitballin' ideas I still think what happened to death in the show is bs. But yeah he/she/force of nature should be legally able to appear in the game, Public Domain rules.
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Post by crocodile on Jul 12, 2016 21:45:42 GMT -6
That's why Iga isn't using Dracula - not because he's remotely afraid Konami will bother him but because he wants to do something different. He's completely free of the Castlevania baggage and timeline. This is the ideal time for him, or anyone else on the team, to stretch their creative wings. Yes and no. Sure, in the case of Dracula, since that character is far too emblematic of Castlevania ("Akumajou Dracula"), but the likes of Death should still be in the cards. Using a character or setting that already exists in the popular conscience in a way that befits your intended framework lends the effort the stamp of legitimacy - certainly moreso than if you go out of your way to create everything from scratch. Iga certainly knows this, which is why he has set the game in a specific, preexisting country, designated the main castle as having come from "hell", and even toyed with the idea of framing the plot as being the result of a certain historical Icelandic volcano eruption. He also did not invent the pseudoscience of alchemy. Iga could introduce Death as a much more meaningful presence than simply the boss leading up to the game's finale. As an aside, while I think its likely Yamane wants to avoid recomposing say "A Lost Painting", I think fears she might avoid a particular instrument or type of instrument border on paranoia and hyperbole. Like just c'mon son! I can either voice my concerns now or hope for the best and kick myself later. And I don't think that particular example was much of a stretch. An organ's going to lend itself to basically two things: sustained chords, and the Toccata and Fugue-like thing we hear in every Castlevania game. If Yamane elects to use an organ, one or both of those will happen, and it will conjure comparisons with Castlevania whether that was the intent or not. Therefore there is the risk that we won't get any. A) I never said I was opposed to using Death - I only said that if they do use the concept it should be in a way that Castlevania didn't use it. Considering all the different ways Death has been used across fiction and across the world, I don't think that's particularly hard I brought up the Dracula example because it was a manner in which Iga et al already said they wanted to differentiate Bloodstained from Castlevania. I never said he had to build everything from starch, I just said the dev team is likely eager to not copy all the key elements of Castlevania wholesale. It's important that this game, and potential series, has its own identity. Shards, alchemy, etc, are all concepts that were barely touched upon, if at all, during Castlevania. A new IP like Bloodstained is an opportunity to explore all new avenues or expand on concepts Castlevaina barely touched upon. B) Unless you legitimately believe that all/most songs that use organs sound the same (and I can't/don't believe you do) than what you're saying still doesn't make sense. There's a lot of room for an OST to sound like a Yamane work and not essentially redo her greatest hits. Unless you think so little of her musical range that she can't make varied tracks using the same instruments? That she would somehow shackle herself for fears others might claim she is copying herself? (Note that both of those would be different from her just not using those instruments because she didn't want to and wanted to do something different - which I get the sense you would still be disappointed by?)
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thrashinuva
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Post by thrashinuva on Jul 12, 2016 21:53:18 GMT -6
About as much as Thor can be used in anything.
Meaning yes.
Even further, Bloodstained could use Dracula as a character, and there's nothing Konami can do about it. Even further than that, they could use Alucard as well.
What they can't use from Castlevania: The term "Castlevania" The exact depictions of Alucard and Dracula as they appear within Castlevania, or any other character. Art/music assets from any of the games.
And as far as I'm aware, that's about it. They could legally have a character named "Richter Belmont", and as far as I could say, there wouldn't be any problem with that. Now if you could play him as the hero of the story and/or he was going around whipping things, then there's some potential legal trouble there. If we wanted to stretch as much as we could while staying legally safe, just using the name "Belmont" without any further connection, would be the furthest I would ever go.
However "Death" isn't trademarked, copyrighted, patented, or anything. The idea of the character of Death isn't unique either. Meaning, you could still have a floating cloaked spectre with a scythe named Death, and it'd be okay. If that was ever an issue anywhere, Konami would have infringed on someone else's rights first.
And of course the same goes for Dracula/Alucard. Castlevania didn't invent them. Dracula was a heavy rumor a long time ago that eventually got turned into a movie, as such even the movies didn't have legal rights over them, and even if they did they are so old that they have expired by now. If they did have a Copyright on it, it would have expired about 20-30 years ago, putting Dracula and everything related to it under public domain, which is why Konami was able to use it with no legal trouble.
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Post by asterra on Jul 12, 2016 22:02:09 GMT -6
B) Unless you legitimately believe that all/most songs that use organs sound the same (and I can't/don't believe you do) I think you're forgetting the required framework: Music appropriate for a gothic setting, in a posh, evil castle, while battling hellspawn. I would say that the uses of organs in that context sound pretty much the same, yes. That she would somehow shackle herself for fears others might claim she is copying herself? (Note that both of those would be different from her just not using those instruments because she didn't want to and wanted to do something different - which I get the sense you would still be disappointed by?) Not the fears of others but the desire to be original at the expense of options.
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LeoLeWolferoux
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jul 13, 2016 1:22:04 GMT -6
Konami hasn't trademarked Death, so yes they could theoretically use Death as a character or boss. Even a regular enemy.
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dareka
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Post by dareka on Jul 13, 2016 1:30:37 GMT -6
Since both Death and Dracula are public domain, unless the game copied the look of specific iteration of the characters as they appeared in one of the Castlevania titles, Connami can't do jack. In theory IGA could make Dracula the last boss and they still couldn't (successfully) sue. The game may be called Akumajo Dracula in Japan, but the thing is that game design has no copyright (one of the things I learned in game design school!). Only the game assets have copyright - not the way they're arranged, which is what the game actually is. So you can't say " the association of this public domain character to this game design is of our authorship," since, um, neither have copyright to begin with.You'd have to copy-paste Dracula's visuals from one of the games to infringe on Connami's copyright. Hell, they don't even have copyright over a vampire named Alucard, as the manga Hellsing demonstrated. They have copyright over the Belmonts and the vampire killer whip, as well as things like the details of Alucard's backstory and such. Anyway, I personally agree with those whose say the point is moot, because IGA probably won't go there (though it would be awesome to have Norio Wakamoto in a speaking role in the game, because any and all things are made better by having Norio Wakamoto in them). But is it legal? Damn straight it is!
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thrashinuva
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Post by thrashinuva on Jul 13, 2016 1:56:40 GMT -6
Hell, they don't even have copyright over a vampire named Alucard, as the manga Hellsing demonstrated. It didn't really need to be demonstrated by anyone. It's under the same umbrella as Dracula. Alucard was completely conceived by creative persons, but that again was a long time ago, and any potential copyright revolving around the character (who was actually just Dracula pretending to be human, after they thought they killed Dracula) has long since been expired and is now considered public domain.
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ChucklesTheJester
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Post by ChucklesTheJester on Jul 13, 2016 6:57:46 GMT -6
Hey look it's Death... which one?
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Shax
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Post by Shax on Jul 13, 2016 7:00:42 GMT -6
Konami doesn't own "Death" as a word, so they have no legal claim to it. They can use "Death" as a character if they wanted to. Gauntlet had a "Death" as well but...can't claim it.
Fun fact: Destroyah from Godzilla got his name because he was originally going to be called "Destroyer." Although, Toho couldn't trademark the word "Destroyer." That is why his name is Destroyah instead.
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Post by BalancedHydra on Jul 13, 2016 7:06:20 GMT -6
When I think of Death, my default image goes to Neil Gaiman's version. Bones and scythe is my #2 choice. As much as I would love to see Neil version in any media outside of DC, there are copyright to consider.
Maybe something akin to the Endless but different. Just like how there are many different Draculas through out all of media.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 13, 2016 7:26:39 GMT -6
Just call him Grim Reaper instead and bam its unique. I'm kinda hoping he returns it'd be a cool way to make it feel like the same series, and since castlevania is gone I kinda want that
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