Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on May 20, 2016 3:30:00 GMT -6
Picture just to illustrate my post. I don't like my post to have no pictures on it. One of the main characteristics of IGAVANIA games is that the whole castle has many blocked paths and areas that you can't go. You WILL be able to go, "someday", but you can't go at the moment. Those blocks ara passable, later, by what we can call "progression abilities". Here are a few examples: Double JumpIn Symphony of the Night, it was a relic, Alucard would jump and then transform it's cape into wings to flap and jump a second time. Most of the other Castlevanias had simple double jumps, or a jump followed by a spin jump. Double Jump let the character to acess higher areas. Locked Doors or PathsSymphony of the Night has magical blue doors that could only be opened by a unlocking relic. Aria of Sorrow has a specific area where an enemy rewinds time everytime you enter, making you restart the corridor. You need to get a specific soul (the Protagonist can absorb souls from monsters and use them as powers) locked on a post, at a specific area, whose the only usage is to block that specific time-rewinding power. Harmony of Dissonance has an array of doors that can be unlocked with specific itens and walls that can be broken by specific equipment. Switches
Most Igavania games had places with switches that unlock other areas. Creative use of PowersOrder of Ecclesia has some areas where the player needs to use specific powers in order to pass then, normally to get new powers, like a place where wind blows and you need to jump using a magnet magic and stop at a specific place to absorb a new power. FlyingAlmost all Igavanias had some kind of flying power. You can transform into a bat at Symphony of the Night, Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow. You can transform into a white owl on Portrait of Ruin, or do endless high jumps at Harmony of Dissonance. You can grow dark-feathered crow like wings to fly on Order of Ecclesia. What kinds of blocked paths and progression abilities you guys want Bloodstained to have? How you want then to look and what they could be? Powers? Itens? Equipment? A mix of everything? And about the castle itself? Few blocked areas here and there, or a crampled place full of blocked paths and sealed areas to explore?
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Post by allooutrick on May 21, 2016 12:34:59 GMT -6
I would like to see what Dawn of Sorrow did with it's secret enemies expanded on. Rather than just finding one enemy, Miriam could summon a character that'll grant her access to an optional area or alternate route. As for mandatory progression abilities I feel something crystal related is a must, whether that's reflecting light like Zelda and the mirror shield, shooting a crystal mass through the air, forming crystals around herself and dashing with the speed of a wolf, or even forming a pillar to stand on. Lastly, these abilities should be useful at some points but not used everywhere. For example, I don't mind an ability being used in optional rooms, between areas, and the occasional room along the main path.
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Post by demiurgos on May 21, 2016 15:15:33 GMT -6
Well, if Alucard could become a fog... maybe Miriam could morph into some kind of glittering magic quartz sand that the crystals might be made of...
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Post by crocodile on May 22, 2016 15:15:19 GMT -6
As a general rule, I much prefer soft locks (you can reach areas but its MUCH harder to get there and MUCH harder to move through them without the appropriate power up/levels) over hard locks (you can't reach this area AT ALL without the "Stone of Aja" or movement ability X). An example is in Circle of the Moon (I know its not a game Iga technically worked on) where you could reach and play through the Underground Waterway without the Cleansing item but it was super tough and you were usually under-leveled if you went there before aiming for the Cleansing item. That allows ways for players to challenge themselves who want some extra challenge and allows some interesting sequence breaking as well. I'm curious as to where Iga stands as a designer nowadays on Soft vs Hard locks. I'm curious as to what people on this site feel about them in general. Mana , how have Iga and the castle design team been approaching this subject for the design of Bloodstained? Is is that a question you can't answer now?
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Post by Mana on May 23, 2016 20:36:32 GMT -6
As a general rule, I much prefer soft locks (you can reach areas but its MUCH harder to get there and MUCH harder to move through them without the appropriate power up/levels) over hard locks (you can't reach this area AT ALL without the "Stone of Aja" or movement ability X). An example is in Circle of the Moon (I know its not a game Iga technically worked on) where you could reach and play through the Underground Waterway without the Cleansing item but it was super tough and you were usually under-leveled if you went there before aiming for the Cleansing item. That allows ways for players to challenge themselves who want some extra challenge and allows some interesting sequence breaking as well. I'm curious as to where Iga stands as a designer nowadays on Soft vs Hard locks. I'm curious as to what people on this site feel about them in general. Mana , how have Iga and the castle design team been approaching this subject for the design of Bloodstained? Is is that a question you can't answer now? It's a little early to talk about it in detail, but there are certain moves/items required to enter certain areas. Whether these features are absolutely required, I'm not sure. We could assume it would be similar to past Igavania games.
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Post by CastleDan on May 23, 2016 23:05:52 GMT -6
I generally prefer hard locks as igavanias are typically known for the " power up " that allows access to a new area type scenarios.
However, I don't see why it has to be so cut and dry? Why not a mixture? I'm all about variety.
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Post by LordKaiser on May 23, 2016 23:21:24 GMT -6
I will Copy paste this from the "You found a secret room" thread:
I like secret areas in games and of course in Castlevania. Breakable walls that reveal a hidden room or a item and puzzles that opens a room, yup they add a lot to the experience and I want to see lots of them in Bloodstained including those areas that require a certain item or ability to reach.
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Post by CastleDan on May 23, 2016 23:37:54 GMT -6
I will Copy paste this from the "You found a secret room" thread: I like secret areas in games and of course in Castlevania. Breakable walls that reveal a hidden room or a item and puzzles that opens a room, yup they add a lot to the experience and I want to see lots of them in Bloodstained including those areas that require a certain item or ability to reach. I approve of this message
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
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Post by Pure Miriam on May 24, 2016 7:35:24 GMT -6
Wow, a staff member answered on my topic. I'm honored I think sequence break are good for power ups, weapons and such, but it is terrible for story and plot-wise. So, there is a need for hard locks. Soft locks can exist to block player from reaching power ups that can't be used to break the game's plot sequence.
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on May 24, 2016 9:30:04 GMT -6
Love this vid cause it shows level progression via basic and advanced moves, as well as integrated tutorial design
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Post by crocodile on May 24, 2016 14:04:02 GMT -6
As a general rule, I much prefer soft locks (you can reach areas but its MUCH harder to get there and MUCH harder to move through them without the appropriate power up/levels) over hard locks (you can't reach this area AT ALL without the "Stone of Aja" or movement ability X). An example is in Circle of the Moon (I know its not a game Iga technically worked on) where you could reach and play through the Underground Waterway without the Cleansing item but it was super tough and you were usually under-leveled if you went there before aiming for the Cleansing item. That allows ways for players to challenge themselves who want some extra challenge and allows some interesting sequence breaking as well. I'm curious as to where Iga stands as a designer nowadays on Soft vs Hard locks. I'm curious as to what people on this site feel about them in general. Mana , how have Iga and the castle design team been approaching this subject for the design of Bloodstained? Is is that a question you can't answer now? It's a little early to talk about it in detail, but there are certain moves/items required to enter certain areas. Whether these features are absolutely required, I'm not sure. We could assume it would be similar to past Igavania games. Different Igavanias are kind of on different places on this spectrum (hard vs soft) so I was just kind of curious in which direction Iga has moved as a designer, especially in the past 8 years, and how that may influence the design of Bloodstained. Perhaps its too early to be asking this question? Well hopefully a good balance is struck. I think the virtues of both types have already been discussed in here so I guess we'll see where the chips fall. I generally prefer hard locks as igavanias are typically known for the " power up " that allows access to a new area type scenarios. However, I don't see why it has to be so cut and dry? Why not a mixture? I'm all about variety. A) Your argument for hard locks seems to come down solely to tradition (unless I've misunderstood you?). I don't think that's a particularly compelling argument, especially given that there are legit reasons why you might want to have some some number of hard locks as Pure Miriam pointed out. B) It's not usually cut and dry but the balance has to be something you think about and consider early in development. You usually want strong narrative moments to be controlled by hard locks but if you have too many, it can make the world feel especially artificial, stymie exploration and significantly reduce replayability. Compare and contrast the design of Super Metroid vs Metroid Fusion. Hard locks are generally just less fun. Perhaps my memory is off but I'd consider SOTN one of the softer-locked games Iga has worked on so I'm a bit surprised you have preference for hard locks.
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Post by Kaius on May 24, 2016 14:08:52 GMT -6
I really hate the fact on some games that you visit a level only once and then never see it again unless for fun. I remember SOTN having a good point on this because there are so many secret rooms everywhere in the Castle that you're crossing old rooms over and over again ! Maybe SOTN lacks some energy on exploring though, but the idea is still good ! I hope we'll have, not only exploration, but re-exploration in Bloodstained !
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Post by CastleDan on May 24, 2016 14:35:55 GMT -6
It's a little early to talk about it in detail, but there are certain moves/items required to enter certain areas. Whether these features are absolutely required, I'm not sure. We could assume it would be similar to past Igavania games. Different Igavanias are kind of on different places on this spectrum (hard vs soft) so I was just kind of curious in which direction Iga has moved as a designer, especially in the past 8 years, and how that may influence the design of Bloodstained. Perhaps its too early to be asking this question? Well hopefully a good balance is struck. I think the virtues of both types have already been discussed in here so I guess we'll see where the chips fall. I generally prefer hard locks as igavanias are typically known for the " power up " that allows access to a new area type scenarios. However, I don't see why it has to be so cut and dry? Why not a mixture? I'm all about variety. A) Your argument for hard locks seems to come down solely to tradition (unless I've misunderstood you?). I don't think that's a particularly compelling argument, especially given that there are legit reasons why you might want to have some some number of hard locks as Pure Miriam pointed out. B) It's not usually cut and dry but the balance has to be something you think about and consider early in development. You usually want strong narrative moments to be controlled by hard locks but if you have too many, it can make the world feel especially artificial, stymie exploration and significantly reduce replayability. Compare and contrast the design of Super Metroid vs Metroid Fusion. Hard locks are generally just less fun. Perhaps my memory is off but I'd consider SOTN one of the softer-locked games Iga has worked on so I'm a bit surprised you have preference for hard locks. I feel like SOTN actually has the perfect mix of hard lock and soft lock which is why I said a good mixture of both. There's certain areas where you can't progress unless you have a certain ability and other abilities you can just go in early but get dominated. I genuinely love both. My answer is influenced by SOTN in that SOTN is about variety and I love variety.
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Post by demiurgos on May 26, 2016 6:21:01 GMT -6
Regarding the question of different progression abilities that would work with the overall alchemy theme... there's also a state for materia called liquid crystal, that has properties of both crystal (as in how the molecules are oriented) and liquid (the way it acts). I visualize this as the properties of the lesser demon Morte. I could see Miriam using this kind of "morte-ability" to pour through some paths earlier inaccessible. That would be neat.
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
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[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
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Post by Pure Miriam on May 26, 2016 8:09:06 GMT -6
I didn't really knew this concept of soft-locks and hard-locks, but i think it is a good way of describing this kind of lock. Just want to add more two cents to the discussion:
About Soft Locks VS Hard Locks As i said before, hard locks are mandatory to stop the player from breaking the game's plot sequence. They must be there. Of course, there are hard locks that also block things like power ups, weapons, powers and such, but i think this is also good to stop the player from being overpowered. Soft locks are really a thing for speed runners and people that like to explore and force the gameplay to it's limits, wich is something that also must exist, there are a ton of speed runners and players that love to discover those things. So, i think that it must have a equilibrium between hard locks and soft locks, with a little more soft locks than hard locks. About the progression context As crocodile said before, i do agree that most of those locks must be inside a context, of course this is sometimes impossible, but let's take an example that i already said earlier. On Aria of Sorrow, Soma Cruz has the power to absorb souls from demons and use them as powers. Then you have something called by some fans, as "Soul Holder", a type of...lamp post thingy containing a soul for absolutely no reason. They just didn't want to put that soul on a boss (like Dawn of sorro did with most progression souls) or didn't want to make an enemy for it and there is quite a few on the game. Then you have Galamoth Soul, that gives you the ability to "see places where time has stopped". There is a single place "where time has stopped". Without the soul, you always go back at the beginning of that place. With the soul ON, you just need to walk there and that's it. So, the soul is basically a key disguised as a soul power. That is not good.
Relics was magical itens that could do anything. You can use that easily for any purpose. But if you want to put a progression ability ON A POWER of the main character, it is much better if that power has a little better context on it, like the dark crow wings of Shanoa, that match perfectly with her dark appearance, or Alucard Mist form that could traverse some special walls.
As i said before, of course it doesn't need to have that on all things, it is something hard to do. A key here, a lock there, a switch over there, is something always needed.
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Post by Astaroth on May 26, 2016 11:51:23 GMT -6
Not familiar with other uses of the terminology, but hard and soft locks usually refer to crashing or rendering the game unplayable
Perceptible and hidden affordance kind of fits better with your point about gated progression, if you wanna know more see the vid i posted above
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Post by Torabi on Jun 22, 2016 23:36:26 GMT -6
As i said before, hard locks are mandatory to stop the player from breaking the game's plot sequence. They must be there. I'd argue that they should be there on a first or "clean" playthrough, but absolutely don't have to be -- and preferably wouldn't be -- on subsequent playthroughs. The player already knows the story, it's ok if they see or do things out of order. One of my biggest frustrations in previous Igavania games is when new game+ takes away rapid movement abilities. I end up rushing through the game to reclaim those abilities, because it's painfully slow to move around without them once you've experienced them.
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Post by wes on Jun 23, 2016 9:59:15 GMT -6
As a general rule, I much prefer soft locks (you can reach areas but its MUCH harder to get there and MUCH harder to move through them without the appropriate power up/levels) over hard locks (you can't reach this area AT ALL without the "Stone of Aja" or movement ability X). An example is in Circle of the Moon (I know its not a game Iga technically worked on) where you could reach and play through the Underground Waterway without the Cleansing item but it was super tough and you were usually under-leveled if you went there before aiming for the Cleansing item. That allows ways for players to challenge themselves who want some extra challenge and allows some interesting sequence breaking as well. I'm curious as to where Iga stands as a designer nowadays on Soft vs Hard locks. I'm curious as to what people on this site feel about them in general. Mana , how have Iga and the castle design team been approaching this subject for the design of Bloodstained? Is is that a question you can't answer now? Soft locks, or open doors all the way! Nothing better than getting ruined by skeletons who guard the catacombs in the beginning of Dark Souls 1. Even if somewhat illusory, three paths at the start of DS1 is what made it so amazing. Forget the sequels, forget Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1 is one of the FEW 3D Castleroids. I hope Bloodstained gives us a sense of geographical weight, connectivity, and choices, semi-illusory or not.
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