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Post by CastleDan on Jul 28, 2016 8:25:44 GMT -6
I have something to contribute. I really feel like Dark Metamorphosis is in the wrong section. It's an easier thing to pull off than some of the harder things to do in the game like soul steal. Soul Steal is a very long command I think that should be the things mentioned in the hard section not Dark Metamorphosis. I know you mentioned something about the inputs being weird on playstation but since then it's been on different systems and I pull it off flawlessly all the time on PSVITA.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 28, 2016 9:06:53 GMT -6
That was a conscious choice because there's so much of a negative stigma behind Soul Steal. I'm fine with it, but for many people and thus objectively, it would have gotten much less votes than a mention of Dark Metamorphosis, which is I imagine the most difficult that motions would be in a new game (half circle).
Something like Soul Steal would be fine and could be vaguely inferred in that poll option, but it just often didn't work for a lot of people. Even if many read my post and understood the input interpreter issues, the bad experience from not getting the move would have needlessly clouded the results.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 28, 2016 9:49:16 GMT -6
That was a conscious choice because there's so much of a negative stigma behind Soul Steal. I'm fine with it, but for many people and thus objectively, it would have gotten much less votes than a mention of Dark Metamorphosis, which is I imagine the most difficult that motions would be in a new game (half circle). Something like Soul Steal would be fine and could be vaguely inferred in that poll option, but it just often didn't work for a lot of people. Even if many read my post and understood the input interpreter issues, the bad experience from not getting the move would have needlessly clouded the results. I mean I get that, but I suck at button input fighting games and Dark Metamorphosis is one of the easiest things for me to pull off. So it's a shame to see it lagging in the polls, and might not be used ( if they're in the game) despite it being pretty simple. Just my pointless opinion, don't mind me lol
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Sept 26, 2016 11:51:13 GMT -6
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Post by CastleDan on Sept 26, 2016 13:11:07 GMT -6
Indeed, this is a victory of mine that I'm very happy to have! Although, I'm sad about no shields due to no dual wielding. Oh well! Glad to have one victory!
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Post by Galamoth on Sept 26, 2016 14:25:03 GMT -6
^ Well, besides the fact that today is the 30th Anniversary of Castlevania, this recent interview certainly made my day.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 0:02:55 GMT -6
From Operation: Akumajou's interview with IGA just now:
IGA —Yes, we are planning to add special input combos for special attacks. Did he elaborate on the complexity of the inputs? EDIT: Looked at the interview, no additional info. There should have been a follow-up question. Well, considering IGA's earlier statements, I'm guessing we'll just have simple inputs.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Sept 27, 2016 8:04:42 GMT -6
Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking. Some of what he had said before led me to think that he was moving away from some of the more difficult motions for people, so we may be looking at the second poll option mostly. I think that's where it may still be useful to compile bullets for this thread. It's a nice, clean 100 votes right now.
I'll go ahead and get that rolling: - With 100 votes by 78 respondents over about 6 months, we have an opinion of 84% in favor of the return of special attacks with at least quarter circle or "back to forward" complexity
- Of those that do not mind directional and button input special attacks, 23% of total votes/~38% of those in favor of the specials were in favor also of more difficult motions such as half circles (rolling back to forward/forward to back)
- 13% of votes were for single direction + button attacks ONLY (i.e. current directional shard abilities)
- 3 votes/3% were given to "None/Other" with these replies seemingly all being "Other" rather than the entire exclusion of special attacks
- A main issue with the difficulty of motions in SotN is likely from how the input interpreter was coded in-game rather than so much the actual motions themselves, as noted by speedrunners such as mecharichter and romscout during streams and marathons
- It was felt that some degree of natural correlation and intuitiveness between the attack's action and what its input is would be favorable
- Trying out different input motions to find a weapon's "hidden" attack/trying to find spells in SotN after acquiring something new was a great joy for many players and some of our most memorable moments
- A concession I had considered, as a means of simplifying motions for those that would rather not have to use them, the game could have in it an equipable accessory (or shard) that allows direction + button for these attacks, at the cost of using an accessory/shard slot. It would have utility for those that can do the motions as is, too, though, as it could allow actions such as moves that were previously executable only on the ground to be done in the air (i.e. Symphony attacks as an example, forward + R1 could perform a mid-air Alucard Sword special, or a mid-air Hellfire teleport for additional jump distance and invincibility)
- Speculation by myself, if this "different" category of attacks needs a spot to fill in the narrative, some of these actions could be the attacks mentioned early on in the Kickstarter, such as "Voltic Chain" which was specifically described as "not a demonic ability". These seemed to me to originate directly from Miriam/her back crystal itself rather than external demonic abilities, and most were crystal or glass-like in origin (the wine glass, throne, chains) - could this mean she produces a crystalline substance to a degree, as also would be evidenced by concept art of stained glass-appearing weapons? Could this Iceman-like production be related to crafting then, as well? (narrative relation/plausibility)
- It will be important, if these input abilities are included, to not overlap too much with other actions to interfere with platforming and dodging that could hamper the experience. Mind given to control overlap, input priority, and the aforementioned input interpreter concerns could alleviate this issue greatly.
wooooooooords I like special moves
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Post by CastleDan on Sept 27, 2016 8:35:36 GMT -6
I have no doubt on my mind that this means a couple things:
They will probably work like SOTN, some magic abilities ( the non-demon) form ...special spells, and special maneuvers will utilize it like the super jump and other type abilities.
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Post by BalancedHydra on Sept 27, 2016 17:05:03 GMT -6
With boots as weapons in the game, I can't help but imagine Miriam pulling out moves like Cammy, Juri or Chun-li. Whisful thinking at best but still cool if one has the imagination for it.
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Post by Galamoth on Sept 27, 2016 18:42:33 GMT -6
With boots as weapons in the game, I can't help but imagine Miriam pulling out moves like Cammy, Juri or Chun-li. Whisful thinking at best but still cool if one has the imagination for it. I have a feeling that I've posted something in response to a comment like this before. (I'll check after posting this comment) In SotN, Alucard could actually perform a " Hadouken"-like special attack with the Fist of Tulkas weapon (though the game simply calls them "fireballs"). The special attack is executed with the same quarter-circle directional input command as the basic Hadouken special move that many Street Fighter characters are capable of. ^ At least Alucard doesn't shout "Hadouken!" when performing it. It's his same attack yell used for most other weapons. Miriam, depending on the weapon she wields, will likely be able to execute special moves with the quarter-circle motion and even "back + forward", perhaps a semi-circle input as well. Maybe the "Shoryuken" forward+down-forward input is also viable. I also wouldn't be surprised if Miriam had access to more than just one special move when wielding certain [possibly late-game] weapons. I have no doubt that IGA & Inti-Creates will try to be original with some special moves, but I'd honestly love it if some input commands with certain Kicking weapons result in special attacks reminiscent of Chun-Li, Cammy, and/or Juri. Just an extra note: Since Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night is not an arcade-style fighting game, performing the quarter-circle command in the opposite direction [that Miriam isn't facing] most likely won't result in a different special move.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Sept 28, 2016 7:59:08 GMT -6
Hm. For Street Fighter style kicking moves, and things that could fit in usefulness-wise and in the context of a 'vania game: - A "lightning legs" type move is pretty likely regardless if kick weapons have special moves period, which as we see now seems true. Hopefully it's not a mash move, though - For Cammy, I could see something that looks like Cannon Strike being her dive kick. She will have one anyway, lol. Otherwise, her down > up Gravity Boots/Richter dagger jump move could look similar to Cannon Spike (Cammy's invincible move) with a kick weapon equipped. Good thing she's wearing those bloomers... - Juri-ish, perhaps the short range fireball kick or maybe even the spinny kick cartwheel move. That move would need some degree of invulnerability to be a viable attack - Speaking of SF type stuff, I hope she has some Rose-like abilities. Something like Soul Satellite, reflecting projectiles (maybe even with her scarf/ribbon?! )
Anyway, crocodile , any input on the bullets in my previous post? Other than there likely being too much text? It's such a technical topic that I hate to not touch on all of those things.
edit: Oh, and well...doing bullets at all at this point may be unnecessary and a formality, but it is at least good for the sake of summation or if Mana wanted something to reference.
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Post by Galamoth on Sept 28, 2016 8:51:11 GMT -6
Hm. For Street Fighter style kicking moves, and things that could fit in usefulness-wise and in the context of a 'vania game: - A "lightning legs" type move is pretty likely regardless if kick weapons have special moves period, which as we see now seems true. Hopefully it's not a mash move, though - For Cammy, I could see something that looks like Cannon Strike being her dive kick. She will have one anyway, lol. Otherwise, her down > up Gravity Boots/Richter dagger jump move could look similar to Cannon Spike (Cammy's invincible move) with a kick weapon equipped. Good thing she's wearing those bloomers... - Juri-ish, perhaps the short range fireball kick or maybe even the spinny kick cartwheel move. That move would need some degree of invulnerability to be a viable attack - Speaking of SF type stuff, I hope she has some Rose-like abilities. Something like Soul Satellite, reflecting projectiles (maybe even with her scarf/ribbon?! )
Yes! I'd love to see something similar to that, too. Miriam is going to be quite proficient with Magic, considering her powers, so why not have reflecting projectiles as well? (similar to the "Gradius Shield" summoned by the Shield Rod/Mablung Sword in SotN) As for the other bullets, I can definitely see a Juri style "cartwheel"-kick as a special move. Dive-kicks & jump-kicks are probably less likely to be executed by special input commands (except equipping certain shoes/boots may alter the properties of those move, possibly making them powerful Cammy-esque "Cannon" kicks).
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Post by crocodile on Sept 29, 2016 0:30:18 GMT -6
Hm. For Street Fighter style kicking moves, and things that could fit in usefulness-wise and in the context of a 'vania game: - A "lightning legs" type move is pretty likely regardless if kick weapons have special moves period, which as we see now seems true. Hopefully it's not a mash move, though - For Cammy, I could see something that looks like Cannon Strike being her dive kick. She will have one anyway, lol. Otherwise, her down > up Gravity Boots/Richter dagger jump move could look similar to Cannon Spike (Cammy's invincible move) with a kick weapon equipped. Good thing she's wearing those bloomers... - Juri-ish, perhaps the short range fireball kick or maybe even the spinny kick cartwheel move. That move would need some degree of invulnerability to be a viable attack - Speaking of SF type stuff, I hope she has some Rose-like abilities. Something like Soul Satellite, reflecting projectiles (maybe even with her scarf/ribbon?! )
Anyway, crocodile , any input on the bullets in my previous post? Other than there likely being too much text? It's such a technical topic that I hate to not touch on all of those things.
edit: Oh, and well...doing bullets at all at this point may be unnecessary and a formality, but it is at least good for the sake of summation or if Mana wanted something to reference. I think you hit all the major points - just things might be a bit wordier than needed. Since my understanding is that these are to be translated, things work better if they are more concise. Now that its been confirmed we would get special input attack commands, there's no real reason to talk about the number of people that opposed them (especially since its so small). I would just focus on the consensus. Say: - The vast majority of the voters/backers on the board would like to see special inputs no more complex than back/forward and quarter circle motions. A few would be fine with a few more complex motions such as half-circles though.The point you make about "A main issue with the difficulty of motions in SotN is likely from how the input interpreter was coded in-game rather than so much the actual motions themselves, as noted by speedrunners such as mecharichter and romscout during streams and marathons" is accurate but I'm unclear what exactly you want to communicate to IGA. Just be careful to not do that again? I think a better way to work that would be to say: - Make sure the buffer for inputs is lenient and that the game can read your inputs well and clearly - avoid if you can some of the inaccurate inputs and wonky programming of the past like in SOTN Does that say the same thing you wanted to say? The next point you make about inputs and moves and how one should make sense and flow intuitively from the other is good. A way you could phrase it: -It is very important to backers that the input for a special move make sense intuitively for the nature of the move and vice versa. The input shouldn't feel "random". When you bring up an item for simplifying inputs for those who don't like complex inputs, I think you can be more concise and say something akin to: - An accessory or shard that allows for simpler inputs for moves (direction + button) for the few adverse to complex inputs or for the ability to do moves in ways they normally wouldn't be able to do (such as certain moves in mid-air) is something you may want to consider and would likely be appreciated.When talking about the fun of special moves tied to weapons, I think your statement is good. Something you could try (though again what you already have is pretty good) is say something akin to: -Backers have fond memories and enjoyed experimenting with weapons in previous Igavanias and trying out the special moves associated with them. As such, they would like to see that replicated for at least some of the weaponry in Bloodstained.Your last point (moves shouldn't impeded platforming/exploration) is an important point, I think what you have is good again. Something you can also try is to say: -As excited as we are for these special inputs, we would suggest avoiding making moves critical to movement and exploration require complex inputs that unnecessarily increase the dexterity requirements of the game or that might awkwardly overlap with other critical moves that leave the player prone to too many unwanted errors or the wrong move coming out at the wrong time. Hopefully this input is useful? Again I think you hit all the points but I would want to be more concise and change the tone and nature of the voice used (so it comes off more as polite suggestions than just observational). ___________________________________________________________________________________________ As an aside, when you say: "Speculation by myself, if this "different" category of attacks needs a spot to fill in the narrative, some of these actions could be the attacks mentioned early on in the Kickstarter, such as "Voltic Chain" which was specifically described as "not a demonic ability". These seemed to me to originate directly from Miriam/her back crystal itself rather than external demonic abilities, and most were crystal or glass-like in origin (the wine glass, throne, chains) - could this mean she produces a crystalline substance to a degree, as also would be evidenced by concept art of stained glass-appearing weapons? Could this Iceman-like production be related to crafting then, as well? (narrative relation/plausibility)"Are you just speaking to yourself or are you trying to say something to IGA? It's not clear to me. If the former, I wouldn't include that in any Design Review Request.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2016 7:10:12 GMT -6
No point bringing up the input buffer as it worked well in the last entry.
Speaking of which, anyone who spent more than a couple of hours with HD would know just how much the average gamer (that's actually interested in this) struggles performing specials. Specials with complex inputs would be out of reach for a big chunk of IGA's audience and I think it would be for the best to avoid them.
EDIT: What the hell, Gally? Did you swallow a rainbow?
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Sept 29, 2016 7:40:59 GMT -6
- The point you make about "A main issue with the difficulty of motions in SotN is likely from how the input interpreter was coded in-game rather than so much the actual motions themselves, as noted by speedrunners such as mecharichter and romscout during streams and marathons" is accurate but I'm unclear what exactly you want to communicate to IGA. Just be careful to not do that again? I think a better way to work that would be to say:
-Make sure the buffer for inputs is lenient and that the game can read your inputs well and clearly - avoid if you can some of the inaccurate inputs and wonky programming of the past like in SOTN
-
Hopefully this input is useful? Again I think you hit all the points but I would want to be more concise and change the tone and nature of the voice used (so it comes off more as polite suggestions than just observational). As an aside, when you say:
"narrative crystal stuff"
Are you just speaking to yourself or are you trying to say something to IGA? It's not clear to me. If the former, I wouldn't include that in any Design Review Request.
Thanks, croc. Yep, that's what I was trying to communicate with my "wooooords" statement lol, I figured it could all be somewhat more concise one way or the other. I'll answer a few of your questions on things:
What I wanted to communicate to IGA in that first quoted bit, I'm trying to directly address what he had voiced previously about folks having problems or issue with SotN's inputs specifically. I wanted to highlight something that most likely did not realize at the time they played it and still wouldn't, that their issue was likely at least partially related to how they were implemented/read rather than the motions themselves. I didn't specifically go into "make sure they're good" because that's certainly implied by bringing it up and feels somewhat patronizing for me to do personally. That's just how I feel, though, and that would also largely explain why some of this sounds a bit more observational. That said, I think a piece at the end to communicate the specific suggestion is a good idea ;p
Regarding the narrative and all that, no I'm not talking to myself lol. That one certainly moves away from the field of observation, doesn't it? Haha, I just thought it may be a useful thought to consider seeing as one might take a step back and look at this to think "wait, we already have this robust shard system, why do we even need a secondary system for doing attacks?". Having some manner of in-game or narrative-related explanation for why these things are separate or necessary could be useful/nice as opposed to them being in the game just because "they were in my other game and people like it a lot". It's also just something I thought was cool that I thought of obviously, so there's that.
Another observational thing...I think the results themselves were likely skewed in some degree away from favoring the more difficult SotN motions because of how the game took the inputs, so that's mostly why I wanted to call attention to that with the bold statement. I think that with improved input reading and maybe even the accessory option, that 38% would be a good bit higher.
Because after all...if we're making this a thing, we will need a decent variety of different motions, including some on the tougher side, to be able to include more things we can do. I have an urge to make this a bullet, too, oh no...
IMPORTANT THINGS START HERE?: I took some of your suggestions and removed two bullets (redundancy for "simple only" since directional shards are already in and different inputs are basically confirmed, removed "none/other" for mostly lack of relevance), shortened a few other bullets and also appended a statement here or there for clarity:
- With 100 votes by 78 respondents over about 6 months, we have an opinion of 84% in favor of the return of special attacks with at least quarter circle or "back to forward" complexity
- Of those that do not mind directional and button input special attacks, 23% of total votes/~38% of those in favor of the specials were in favor also of more difficult motions such as half circles
- A main issue with the difficulty of motions in SotN is likely from how the input interpreter was coded in-game rather than so much the actual motions themselves, as noted by speedrunners such as mecharichter and romscout during streams and marathons. One approach would be to improve the buffer for inputs in regards to leniency, but also that the game can read your inputs well and clearly
- It will be important, if these input abilities are included, to not overlap too much with other actions to interfere with platforming and dodging that could hamper the experience. Mind given to control overlap, input priority, and the aforementioned input interpreter concerns could alleviate this issue greatly
- It was felt that some degree of natural correlation and intuitiveness between the attack's action and what its input is would be favorable
- Trying out different input motions to find a weapon's "hidden" attack/trying to find spells in SotN after acquiring something new was a great joy for many players and some of our most memorable moments
- A concession I had considered, as a means of simplifying motions for those that would rather not have to use them, the game could have in it an equipable accessory (or shard) that allows direction + button for these attacks, at the cost of using an accessory/shard slot. It would have utility for those that can do the motions as is, too, though, as it could allow grounded actions to be done in the air for new attack/mobility options (i.e. SotN attacks as an example, forward + R1 could perform a mid-air Alucard Sword special, or a mid-air Hellfire teleport for additional jump distance and invincibility)
- Speculation by myself, if this "different" category of attacks needs a spot to fill in the narrative, some of these actions could be the attacks mentioned early on in the Kickstarter, such as "Voltic Chain" which was specifically described as "not a demonic ability". These seemed to me to originate directly from Miriam/her back crystal itself rather than external demonic abilities, and most were crystal or glass-like in origin (the wine glass, throne, chains) - could this mean she produces a crystalline substance to a degree, as also would be evidenced by concept art of stained glass-appearing weapons? Could this Iceman-like production be related to crafting then, as well? (narrative relation/plausibility)
I think I'm happy with it now. Appreciate the thoughts, and good to know I wasn't off base much. As far as the tone and further succinct touches, I will defer that to Mana 's discretion. Don't hesitate to ask me/us if something is confusing if you decide to forward these things, Mana!
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Post by Galamoth on Sept 29, 2016 8:17:28 GMT -6
No point bringing up the input buffer as it worked well in the last entry. Speaking of which, anyone who spent more than a couple of hours with HD would know just how much the average gamer (that's actually interested in this) struggles performing specials. Specials with complex inputs would be out of reach for a big chunk of IGA's audience and I think it would be for the best to avoid them. EDIT: What the hell, Gally? Did you swallow a rainbow?Yes. Yes, I did. Thank you for noticing!
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Sept 29, 2016 8:31:28 GMT -6
I mean, just look at the gif. He's like literally a rainbow for nearly half of those frames.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Sept 30, 2016 1:49:41 GMT -6
What purifyweirdshard said is something i was going to say myself. The "Seventh" ability, based on Azure game, could clearly be used for that purpose. They never said that those other magic showed on that old update was also going to not be demonic, but they could work somehow. Now, i want o add my two cents on the whole input discussion and suggestion, now that IGA confirmed. My personal opinions on how that system could potentially work. THE INPUT COMMANDS MUST BE USEFUL POWERS
Let's be real. From all the 8 dark magic Alucard had, only TWO were really useful (Dark Metamorphosis and Soul Steal). Generally speaking, Alucard's magic was really weak, and anything you could do with, you could do much easily with sub-weapons and weapon attacks. That is not truth to secondary characters, like Richter nad Maxim, but because they were limited on their gameplay, so, their skills was useful. This is the first time that a Igavania game will have a character with a huge magic selection, with Miriam and her Shards, and will also have special commands and inputs. I think the input for weapons is almost mandatory, but regarding Miriam's inputs, those powers must be somehow useful, or they will be just a extra, useless thing. MIRIAM'S FLOWER CRYSTAL ON HER BACK MUST BE USED FOR THIS
I'm hoping that Miriam's flower crystal on her back is not just to show up. Now that input commands is a reality, that flower must be used for that. Voltic Chairs showing up from her back, Crystal wings being formed by it's petals and such. I didn't had much to add, but those are my opinions for now =)
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JeffCross
Shadow of the Night
Ancient Legion
[TI0] Die monster!!!!!!
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JeffCross
[TI0] Die monster!!!!!!
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Post by JeffCross on Sept 30, 2016 3:34:31 GMT -6
First I would like to say... ahem... OMFG SPECIAL INPUTS WILL BE IN THE GAME... YAY!!!! (yes, I know I am late to the party) now that that is out of the way, I will continue. I love that there will be special inputs for special attacks... I just hope they have "spells" like they did in SotN... but I would like it better if there were innate abilities that players have to just figure out and maybe some advanced abilities that players need to find... maybe get there could be some spells where players have to get a shard to advance certain those special moves. but I wonder will it be like SotN... or will we have to get our spells from monster bosses, tomes, grimoires or shards? I like what Pure Miriam said "MIRIAM'S FLOWER CRYSTAL ON HER BACK MUST BE USED FOR THIS" I don't think they "must" be but as she said (he? whatever...) "I'm hoping that Miriam's flower crystal on her back is not just to show up" and I agree it would be cool for her petals to be incorporated in her spells.... Now for weapons, do you guys think it will be like SotN where most of the weapons were simple... eg: one handed swords/fist - quarter-circle, two handed swords back-farward+attack... this was the basic attacks, with a few exceptions (like the sword of Dawn, Heaven Swords).... I, personally, would like to see different inputs with different weapons... not all of them apparently but something like: - One handed weapons (like swords and maces...) - quarter-circle
- Katanas - lower half-circle
- Large weapons (like great swords, axes...) - upper half-circle (like dark metamorphosis)
- One handed pierce weapons (like rapiers, daggers...) - forward, down, down-forward (basically a shoryuken)
- Spears - back, forward+attack
- Whips - forward, forward+attack
- Gun - hold attack, quarter circle+release attack
And there should be some weapon moves that just goes against the grain... like a quarter-circle for a whip move or something... though I don't think they will go this far though lol.
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