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Post by metastase on Mar 8, 2016 7:18:19 GMT -6
Case in point: Old school Castlevanias offered an unique blend of hardcore 2D action and gothic aesthetics that lost its market penetration by the 90's in a major part due to its difficulty. Koji Igarashi revitalized the series by mixing "metroidvania" gameplay and RPG style of customization, which suffered great criticism from old school fans. The series went through a complete 3D reboot that successfully increased market penetration but in the proccess they've lost the majority of the appeal to Castlevania fans, indicating it may have gone too far on the accessibility.
This topic IS NOT on how to reach Lords of Shadow market penetration as far as IGAvanias are concerned, it is assumed that such endeavor compromises too many essentials, leading to generic game design. Instead, it is focused on how to craft a middle ground that can please both old school and metroidvania fans alike. In other words, this topic is on how to keep IGAvania style accessibility while still providing what old school Castlevania fans enjoy.
IGAvanias often suffer heavy criticism by old school Castlevania fans because RPG lvls/power ups disrupts the "tango" that happens between the player and enemies, effectivelly dumbing down the gameplay for the masses. While I love DoS/Aria/SotN, there's no way to fix this issue there. Only PoR and OoE managed to correct this problem with Hard Mode with lvl caps, BUT...
Unfortunately, OoE ends up devaluating its own Hard Mode Lv.1 Cap due to some of its design choices. For one, the short and linear lvl design is BAD for replay value. But the worst offender is the boss design. IMO it betrays what Castlevania is about in the 1st place:
Many bosses are so rigidly scripted, requiring very specific actions from the player without any freedom of movement/custom tactic AT ALL. Bosses like the crab, that Shadow and the giant horse are TERRIBLE for replay value because once you learn their patterns, every subsequent fight with them will play out the exact same way, you just go through the motions without any thought. Notions like "spacing" and the classic "tango" are COMPLETELY killed on these fights. Very, very unfortunate.
So in the end, PoR is the only IGAvania that defeats this legitimate old school criticism. Unfortunately, players are required to finish the game in normal mode before they can even play Hard Mode Lv.1 Cap. Considering all this, my bullet points:
- Hard Mode with LVL Caps should be available from the start, there's no benefit for not doing so, it only keeps old school fans from enjoying the game by not making this available;
- Boss designs that kills player movement or choice of actions should be used sparingly or avoided if possible, it greatly detracts from replay value, kills player/enemy dynamics ("Tangovania") and doesn't necessarily accomplish anything that more traditional boss designs can offer;
- Old school "self contained stage" design doesn't require the exclusion of metroidvania style of exploration as can be observed in PoR (Portraits as warps to stages). In fact I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to program a main menu option for a "stage to stage attack mode" which serves the exact same functionality as old school Castlevanias, warping you to the next stage as soon as you finish the previous one. On the other hand, OoE had that linear level design and stage progression that pleases old school fans BUT at expense of metroidvania exploration. As mentioned above, this compromise isn't required at all.
So what do you guys think about this?
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On the 1st point, I understand IGA puts more effort into making Normal mode the best experience, but is that really worth puting off old school and hardcore fans when the solution is so simple?
Personally, OoE was the biggest let down I had with any IGAvania for the reasons mentioned above. Intially, it leaves a big impression due to aesthetics but that soon fades out in relation to the glaring issues it has. Out of the 3 DS games, DoS had the best Castle but as we know, it's 1 of the most hated by old school fans not only due to its exclusive metroidvania level design but also for being the most grindy. I feel that most of PoR complaints are mainly related to aesthetics (that anime style), which means most gameplay decisions were well thought out.
DoS also had that poor, forced touch-screen functionality, it's grindy and even though it offers Hard Mode, thes difficulty is still irrelevant considering there's no clean LVL Cap Hard mode. I wouldn't mind the grindy aspect IF I had something challenging to use all that stuff in. At least Soul grinding is optional.
OoE had 3 forced button shortcuts (when most people just wanted 2), a greater emphasis on spells over melee (a serious letdown for many), fetch quests to unlock basic buyable items in shops, etc...on top of the forced issues mentioned above.
PoR had Dual Crushes/Character switching, but we're not forced to use those aside from a couple "push the blocks" situations that you only had to do once. 1 of the coolest things about the Castle+contained levels structure in this game is that it allowed for some wicked levels like Nation of Fools inside the metroidvania exploration. And it remains as the only IGAvania where we can choose between male/female protagonist on the main quest (on the fly nonetheless).
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Post by XombieMike on Mar 8, 2016 8:19:47 GMT -6
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Mar 8, 2016 9:26:20 GMT -6
I think your suggestions fit into existing design categories that we've had discussion on...it might be a good idea to hop into those to get your piece added in, so that it can really be considered as part of a poll in one of those topics.
The actual hard mode/level cap type details are discussed pretty thoroughly in the Nightmare difficulty mode thread. The classicvania sensibilities are discussed and the importance of their appreciated is talked about in the Classic mode thread. The idea of (stained glass actually) PoR-style portals to different areas has been bruoght up previously in one of the castle design threads we have had already, but that unfortunately did not make it into the poll. It could be appened to General/traversal mechanics, though.
Basically, what I'm saying is I think it would be wise to separate your items and get them to where they'll be discussed and added to the voting to make a real difference. If not that, then as Mike said, just a Bloodstained discussion thread might be better?
Also, I'd like to put in that I think this a fringe concern. Dracula's Curse may still actually be my favorite Castlevania, but I love the IGA games too. I honestly haven't seen much sentiment at all that people who really liked old 80s-90s CV hated the Igavania style game. There was a bit of that going on when the concept was new, as there's always resistance to new things coming along, but nearly all fans I've seen and know really like both types. So...I think this is very much a niche of niches, and most likely not as significant of a market as you have presented it. As such again, leads me back to thinking dividing up individual (Classic Mode especially) thoughts and ideas for inclusion and submission to the design team to achieve as much as the desired effect as you can would be a good way to go.
Another point, lastly...is that I don't think an aim of the project is to satisfy or reach other markets as would be the case of a standard game being made, or other related endeavors to reach more people/bring in new players, attract media, etc. It's a nice thing if these happen just due to the strength and success of what it will be, but what it will be is the focus, and it's the reason a Kickstarter was necessary: an Igavania game, made for the small market that will go above and beyond to make it happen. The penetration you mention of an Iga game is not comparatively very big today, or ever was, but the fans of the games were hungry enough for more to make it so that having a traditionally big enough market/traditional publisher didn't matter.
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Post by Astaroth on Mar 8, 2016 9:51:07 GMT -6
actually, the bosses in igas games are designed with one very specific criteria, the designer of a boss must be able to beat that boss without taking damage, thats why none of them have cheap bullet hell attacks or insta hits, and the bosses seem to be a dance rather than a bunch of mad dashes to get out of the way of everything or los wher every enemy is padded by lack of hitstun so its a constant run away wait run in 2 hits run away type affair
i would like to see a slight variation to this but it may make a fight frustrating not due to how hard it is but how efficient you are, maybe a doom counter type battle where there is something slowly counting down or the stage is slowly sapping your health, and you need to beat this boss quickly for reasons
on another note you could always make the boss fight harder by going in with no armor and your fists >P
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Mar 8, 2016 9:54:44 GMT -6
Oh yes, boss and enemy behavior, that's another one we've had some great back and forth on D:
We would love to have your input added there, too. I pretty much distracted myself/got sidetracked in my last reply. I hope the relevance isn't entirely lost haha
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Post by jboogieg on Mar 8, 2016 10:13:48 GMT -6
It's kind of funny because I've heard from a variety of people that OoEs bosses were amongst some of the hardest in the whole IGA series.
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Post by metastase on Mar 8, 2016 12:50:33 GMT -6
XombieMike I knew about those threads before creating this post but even then I would need to explain the same reasoning at least 3 times. Also, where does point number 3 belongs to? Classic thread? Castle design and layout? Not to mention some of the threads have a "submitted" note besides them which leads me to believe their discussions have come to an end. Even my boss design observation is ultimately tied back to my point about replay value and its relation with Classic considerations inside the Metroidvania aspects. purifyweirdshard My original suggestion of making Hard modes available from the start was already made on that topic. On the event that this suggestion makes into the game, the idea of Portals similar to PoR isn't needed anymore (because Classic mode). So my point on this issue was more like the preservation of "Tangovania" on the 1st playthrough of the Metroidvania part of the game, if that makes sense. The other reason for this idea that I didn't put on the OP is considering the future: if IGA ever decides to add more content to the game via DLCs or similar, the Portal>Stage structure is a clean way of accomplishing that. This is easier than running another successful Kickstarter campaign for Bloodstained 2 I suppose. Astaroth , purifyweirdshard , jboogieg Well, if dynamic bosses are implemented, there is no need for that boss consideration, which is actually more like something that shouldn't be done than what to actually do. That said, it seems that my point wasn't clear. Mainly, it's about fair difficulty whithout killing gameplay dynamics. Take my Blackmore example. It's only difficult because it kills ALL of your spatial movement, THEN requires the player to have pixel perfect observation skills (or trial and error) in order to figure out he needs to DUCK against 1 specific attack, which is an action that's not particularly required in any other time in boss fight when you can move around (maybe not even in the entire game). And once you do figure out what to do by whatever methods, this boss fight becomes a matter of which attack deals more damage, at which point every subsequent fight with him will play out the exact same way, like FRAME BY FRAME, unless the player screws up. This is simply bad game design. Contrast this with, say, the optional Omega Zero boss fight in Megaman ZX. This fight is MUCH harder than anything in any IGAvania (solo Hard Modes Lv.1 Cap included) but the difference is that it's FAIR. When you mess up, you know what, where and why. There is enough space to try out different strategies, from melee to full ranged or any other customizable gimmick the game allows. The philosophy is still the same - it's possible to "perfect" the boss - but all customization options the game offers are respected by the boss design. For reference, this is the fight: I'm not saying Bloodstained bosses should require this lvl of skill and reaction time. I'm just noting that boss battles can be as hard - and fair - as Iga wants them to be without disrespecting his own time and work creating lots of customization options that are simply killed like in the examples I've mentioned about in OoE. IMO killing the player's spatial movement is also a mistake but once again, if boss designs end up having remixes/new random attacks then this issue can also be circumvented that way.
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Post by XombieMike on Mar 8, 2016 13:23:43 GMT -6
You have an opportunity to get a message across to IGA about these things by way of Mana reading them, translating them and talking to IGA about them. The more you elaborate and explain your post, the more I think it could be misrepresented. The best way to communicate design suggestions is to make a simple sentence or two using as few words as possible to express your idea.
Things like that are easy to add to a design review submission. The submitted threads are submitted up to the point in the thread where I've posted that everything up to that point is submitted, and if good progress is made afterwards it can be resubmitted.
The reason for that is so a developed suggestion can go ahead and start making progress while leaving it open to those who were unavailable to contribute previously.
Placing the same idea in multiple threads will become very disorganized and redundant.
Please also consider that we have information from IGA on these topic, and in some he sounds like he knows exactly what he's going to do, and in others he's asking for feedback from us. Trying to get IGA to go a different direction on something he's probably already building off of is unlikely, however in those other cases what you have to suggest is valuable and it's really cool that you would take the time to share those things. The opportunity for a developer to listen to us is unique and exciting. Let's show them it can be a positive way of making a game.
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Post by Astaroth on Mar 8, 2016 15:10:09 GMT -6
Ok, watched both fights, and i counter your blackmore with omega zero no damage run
Now, there are a lot of basic similarities between omega zero and the blackmore fight, but theres one key difference thats apparent in the video you posted, and thats that omega zero has setups that will automatically hit you like a combination of his heal and rocks in the corner or his heal and upslash close to the corner (countered by dont let him corner you, but you rarely have that option with blackmore, hes designed to corner you), however every single attack has a hole in it, a tell, or a windup like any well made platformer boss
I do admit blackmore doesnt have the best tells of an iga boss, but if you watch the whole fight, there is one combo you never see when it starts combining attacks, and thats the high slash and corner meteor, its always low slash and spread meteor, this is because that combo is unavoidable, the high slash would require a corner duck right into the path of the fireballs or the fireballs move you forward into the arms path, and some of his attacks have more than one hole allowing you to attack using slightly different strategies
Actually, wonder if you get behind him can he turn around?
Anyway, one glaring thing that makes comparing these 2 especially difficult is they are set up differently, one is designed to be a large creature in a claustrophobic area, the other is a small creature in a large space, a better claustrophobic boss for megaman might be gutstank or yellow devil or even the dragon, those severely limit your movement due to their size and environment, or zephyr and the doppelgangers for a small creature in a large space
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Post by metastase on Mar 8, 2016 17:31:43 GMT -6
XombieMike I see. As it stands right now, there are only 2 essential things I would like the developers to consider: 1-) Make Hard modes available from the start instead of being unlockables. 2-) Avoid creating bosses that completely kill player movement inside the boss room if possible. Point 1 is a major deal breaker to me. I will NOT play through normal mode. Point 2 is less of an issue, unless he does what he did in OoE and put 2 claustrophobic bosses almost back to back in the same dungeon (Blackmore and Eligor). I think Brachyura is a serious waste of resources and unlike Gergoth in DoS it doesn't even have any meaningful impact on level navigation. Even then, that Gergoth after effect made that huge pillar section uneventful. Astaroth I think your considerations only reinforce my points. - As the distance between player and enemy increases, the necessity of split second reactions decreases. This is adjusted dynamically by the player if there is space to do so. - Omega Zero falling rocks can be destroyed. This is up to the player. - Omega Zero upward slash is a counter, triggered by detecting when the player jumps. This is triggered by the player. - You can't get behind Blackmore. - In the 2nd Omega Zero video you posted, that player is using Model OX, which is a New Game+ secret unlockable that would be equivalent of spamming special attacks at LVL 99 in most games. - Nonetheless, both Omega Zero players are executing frame perfect combos that are similar to performing sequential perfect blocks in Street Fighter games. For they to combo the way you see in the video, each attack needs to be delayed on purpose and the next input has a 0.4 second window to be executed. There's no visual feedback on this opening window. All of these details aside, the bottom line IMO is that Omega Zero battle is fun to do many times because it's dynamic, there's interplay between all of his actions and the player's, and all setups the player has at his disposal can work in this fight (no customization option was invalidated). All of this still holds true even if you know all of his patterns by heart. IMO the Blackmore fight isn't fun to do again because it's too rigid, the boss patterns do not create interplay, instead requiring very specific actions from the player. As such, once you memorize its patterns, all that's left is going through the same motions. Since there are no dynamics, it's as if you're watching the same cutscene again. Before making this point, I was trying to think of any unique benefit that claustrophobic designs such as this may have from a developer's point of view. I was trying to understand if there is any concept or idea that can only be conveyed or greatly enhanced by this method. The best idea I could imagine to justify this: if the developer is trying to teach some fundamental game mechanic at the start of the game and must be sure the player understands that mechanic before moving on (which IGA did on PoR Behemoth chasing scene). That's about it, I can't see any other benefit aside from aesthetics or variation for variation's sake and the fact that such bosses are much easier to design (at expense of all things mentioned above). On a related note, I've always been greatly impressed by the elegance of the Puppet Master Soul mechanic in DoS. It's a mechanic that can provide faster travel than normal and it's useful in combat and boss fights (or at avoiding fights) both defensively and offensively, not to mention it was clearly designed to be primarily a puzzle solving mechanic (to reach new places). And since it requires precision and conscious use, it's not a passive gimmick either like traditional speed up spells, it's actually dynamic. It covers such a strong core of multiple functionalities, it's no wonder I've seen a few 2D platforming games centered on a similar mechanic.Well, it would certainly be useful in these claustrophobic fights, that's for sure. Btw, that "doom/death countdown" design you mentioned previously was also already done by IGA with the Mummy boss (also available on PoR).
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Post by GenericSoda on Mar 8, 2016 17:34:35 GMT -6
Yeah I read this topic and I couldn't disagree more about OoE's bosses and weapon variety. I used the sickle and rapier glyphs just as much as the Nitesco glyph. Theres always a use for the weapon glyphs because of how they combine so interestingly with the magic glyphs and are generally faster. The Eligor fight never played out the same way twice - for me anyway - because of how tricky it is, but I'll admit it gets a bit fiddly as a result. Blackmore is one of my favorite Castlevania bosses because he doesn't rely on gimmicks and it falls entirely on the player to figure him out. It's not as if ducking is something you won't do often, there are plenty of enemies in the game that can be ducked, and tons of bosses in previous games that require ducking. I also disagree about the use of "spacing" because the first three bosses are basically a tutorial for Magnes, a glyph whose sole purpose is mobility. The bosses that do kill mobility (honestly, Blackmore is the only one I can think of off the top of my head) are a welcome change. I guess the smaller levels are a mark against OoE, but in all honesty, it's not that much different from just using the warp to get around a big castle.
I've always thought that the bosses in IGAvania game were great because they were basically just normal enemies with a wider variety of attacks. I'd love to see harder difficulties implement stuff like feints or attacks that come out more quickly. I'll be the first to admit that they're not always super difficult, but the difficulty always comes from the player learning how to adapt to their attacks rather than unfair situations.
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Post by Galamoth on Mar 8, 2016 17:44:11 GMT -6
Even though it may still be too early for it, I'm starting to wonder how the three playable characters will play in Classic Mode. (Assuming all three of them will be playable in Classic Mode, and not just one)
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Post by Goobsausage on Mar 8, 2016 19:43:51 GMT -6
Everything suggested so far sounds good and there's nothing I really feel bothered by.
I strongly agree with having the all the difficulty levels right out of the gate. Beating games on normal mode in order to unlock hard mode is such a waste of the player's time. I hate everything about having unlockable features tied to beating difficulty levels.
As for the PoR-style portrait warp suggestion for the self-contained old-school stages, I don't think they'll be necessary since Classic mode is going to be a separate part of the game.
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Post by lai on Mar 8, 2016 19:57:32 GMT -6
I was gonna make a very long post defending OOE from what I see as some fairly flimsy accusations but this thread isn't the place for that.
At the end of the day I do agree with most of the points you made here although I do not entirely agree with your reasoning and the one point I do disagree with you on (bosses, restricting movement is not game killing IMO) has had it's own thread.
Also "Tangovania?"
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