thrashinuva
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Post by thrashinuva on Jan 22, 2016 13:26:32 GMT -6
We should all remember that at this point all the art is concept art. That is, it doesn't necessarily reflect what the final look will be. We all love how Miriam looks, but minor details can change, and so far they already have. At least it looks like it'll probably be for the better, whatever those changes will be. I wouldn't worry about the character model have the same shades and hues as the art, as both are still subject to change. 3D models also are subject to a lot of different lighting effects, including light that will effect the perceived hue of any particular color. In the example we have, Miriam is in a dark room surrounded by torches (which are off screen in the closeups, except the one directly behind her). This is undoubtedly going to affect the way she looks compared to if she was outside on a sunny day.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jan 22, 2016 13:28:21 GMT -6
From what was in the update newsletter, it sounded as though the dev team is about evenly split in their opinions about these shaders. If the community's opinions hold any weight, then it seems that Character 3 is the popular choice, but perhaps we'll see a final shader that's somewhere between nos. 1 and 3 instead, or something akin to the hybridized examples posted above. Personally, I dig no. 3; it follows what I had suggested in the first survey. For those who adamantly prefer something else, one solution could be to allow players to pick between shaders in-game. Take Super Smash Bros., for example. On the Wii U, characters are rendered in a style like shader 1. On the 3DS, the characters have thicker outlines, similar to shader 3, to improve their visibility on the smaller screen, but it's possible to adjust the outline effect if you don't like it. Considering there will be a Vita release, perhaps this option could be available. Even if not, surely the dev team is considering how to keep the game's look consistent across platforms. This is what I was just saying in the Shoutbox. Smash on 3DS had to have a different visual style because the 3DS couldn't handle the HD look of the Wii U version. The illustrated look of character 3 would send the message that Bloodstained isn't next-gen and isn't making good use of the resources available. This would in turn hurt the sales of the game. Hopefully, the team will blend the shaders enough that the illustrated look will appear stunning and unique. I'll counter that by saying that an anime style model with semi-realistic textures and shading looks off-putting, and that trying to make it look "next gen" in that manner will only make it look cheap in the end. The styles don't match up, and all we'd end up with is a game that looks like Mirror of Fate. Bloodstained should be trying to be the next generation of Symphony of the Night, not the next generation of The Dracula X Chronicles. That means the closer it can end up to looking like an illustration, the better. |
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Post by CastleDan on Jan 22, 2016 13:31:31 GMT -6
This is what I was just saying in the Shoutbox. Smash on 3DS had to have a different visual style because the 3DS couldn't handle the HD look of the Wii U version. The illustrated look of character 3 would send the message that Bloodstained isn't next-gen and isn't making good use of the resources available. This would in turn hurt the sales of the game. Hopefully, the team will blend the shaders enough that the illustrated look will appear stunning and unique. I'll counter that by saying that an anime style model with semi-realistic textures and shading looks off-putting, and that trying to make it look "next gen" in that manner will only make it look cheap in the end. The styles don't match up, and all we'd end up with is a game that looks like Mirror of Fate. Bloodstained should be trying to be the next generation of Symphony of the Night, not the next generation of The Dracula X Chronicles. That means the closer it can end up to looking like an illustration, the better. Yeah, that's a good argument. That's what I'm trying to say too. The closer they try to match the look of the 2d games the better it will be. Mirror of Fate just didn't have that magic, and they shouldn't be trying to replicate THAT look. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2016 17:56:03 GMT -6
I'm torn. Character 3 looks better close up, character 1 has too many jagged lines. But from far away character 3 looks washed out. And since you aren't go to have very many close ups, I chose character 1. Background 3 is more dynamic, but doesn't have the atmosphere of background 1. It is awesome they are doing this and involving the community, but at the same time it showcases the down falls of each selection. That's because of the ambient lighting, and can easily be adjusted. |
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Redogan
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Post by Redogan on Jan 22, 2016 21:13:28 GMT -6
I'll counter that by saying that an anime style model with semi-realistic textures and shading looks off-putting, and that trying to make it look "next gen" in that manner will only make it look cheap in the end. The styles don't match up, and all we'd end up with is a game that looks like Mirror of Fate. Bloodstained should be trying to be the next generation of Symphony of the Night, not the next generation of The Dracula X Chronicles. That means the closer it can end up to looking like an illustration, the better. Yeah, that's a good argument. That's what I'm trying to say too. The closer they try to match the look of the 2d games the better it will be. Mirror of Fate just didn't have that magic, and they shouldn't be trying to replicate THAT look. I actually think Mirror of Fate looks great--especially the HD remake on PS3. Not saying I want Bloodstained to look like Mirror of Fate, but you make it sound like Mirror of Fate is trash tier. The same goes for Dracula X Chronicles. I think it looks great. It could have looked even better if it weren't on a handheld, but meh. |
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Post by CastleDan on Jan 22, 2016 21:24:03 GMT -6
Yeah, that's a good argument. That's what I'm trying to say too. The closer they try to match the look of the 2d games the better it will be. Mirror of Fate just didn't have that magic, and they shouldn't be trying to replicate THAT look. I actually think Mirror of Fate looks great--especially the HD remake on PS3. Not saying I want Bloodstained to look like Mirror of Fate, but you make it sound like Mirror of Fate is trash tier. The same goes for Dracula X Chronicles. I think it looks great. It could have looked even better if it weren't on a handheld, but meh. I think DXC looks very drab, just look at the 2d version full of color than compare it to DXC. That's my main point is a lot of times with the realistic approach they for some reason kill off so much of the color to the world.  VS  Either way. Maybe I was harsh to say Mirror of Fate looks bad, I don't think it looks bad but I think the stylized look of shader 3 will make it STAND OUT more and have more of a beauty to it than Mirror. The funny thing is they use a cel shaded look for the cutscenes in mirror of fate and it makes the game look way more interesting and nice, and then the gameplay goes the other approach and looks more drab.   VS   |
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jan 22, 2016 23:08:15 GMT -6
I actually think Mirror of Fate looks great--especially the HD remake on PS3. Not saying I want Bloodstained to look like Mirror of Fate, but you make it sound like Mirror of Fate is trash tier. The same goes for Dracula X Chronicles. I think it looks great. It could have looked even better if it weren't on a handheld, but meh. I think DXC looks very drab, just look at the 2d version full of color than compare it to DXC. That's my main point is a lot of times with the realistic approach they for some reason kill off so much of the color to the world. Either way. Maybe I was harsh to say Mirror of Fate looks bad, I don't think it looks bad but I think the stylized look of shader 3 will make it STAND OUT more and have more of a beauty to it than Mirror. The funny thing is they use a cel shaded look for the cutscenes in mirror of fate and it makes the game look way more interesting and nice, and then the gameplay goes the other approach and looks more drab. Yeah, if all of Mirror of Fate looked like those cutscenes, I would have liked it much more. The problem for me with 2.5D where they don't try to disguise the 3D nature of the characters is that it just looks like toys on a stage. Compare Guilty Gear Xrd to Street Fighter 5. Guilty Gear Xrd looks like a classic 2D fighter, albeit with far higher fidelity than we ever got back in the day. It is clearly an evolution of that style, and it's beautiful. SF5, of the other hand, looks like an evolution of claymation, or maybe Toy Story Fighter Edition. It pretty much gives the appearance of someone breathing life into Street Fighter action figures. Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with that art style. Toy Story was a great movie, and a great looking one to boot. But when I think of Castelvania, I think of this:
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 22, 2016 23:10:48 GMT -6
From what was in the update newsletter, it sounded as though the dev team is about evenly split in their opinions about these shaders. If the community's opinions hold any weight, then it seems that Character 3 is the popular choice, but perhaps we'll see a final shader that's somewhere between nos. 1 and 3 instead, or something akin to the hybridized examples posted above. Personally, I dig no. 3; it follows what I had suggested in the first survey. For those who adamantly prefer something else, one solution could be to allow players to pick between shaders in-game. Take Super Smash Bros., for example. On the Wii U, characters are rendered in a style like shader 1. On the 3DS, the characters have thicker outlines, similar to shader 3, to improve their visibility on the smaller screen, but it's possible to adjust the outline effect if you don't like it. Considering there will be a Vita release, perhaps this option could be available. Even if not, surely the dev team is considering how to keep the game's look consistent across platforms. This is what I was just saying in the Shoutbox. Smash on 3DS had to have a different visual style because the 3DS couldn't handle the HD look of the Wii U version. The illustrated look of character 3 would send the message that Bloodstained isn't next-gen and isn't making good use of the resources available. This would in turn hurt the sales of the game.Man, nah. It does the opposite of that. It even took IGA's breath away, and it's the main reason this update is getting so much positive press. Are you familiar with Guilty Gear Xrd? That game got so much hype, and deservedly so, because it managed to do just this, an impressive display of graphical prowess. It's no easy task to make things look like that. They had to innovate a whole new approach to lighting, and in Unreal 3 at that. |
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maddogg
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Post by maddogg on Jan 22, 2016 23:29:58 GMT -6
From what was in the update newsletter, it sounded as though the dev team is about evenly split in their opinions about these shaders. If the community's opinions hold any weight, then it seems that Character 3 is the popular choice, but perhaps we'll see a final shader that's somewhere between nos. 1 and 3 instead, or something akin to the hybridized examples posted above. Personally, I dig no. 3; it follows what I had suggested in the first survey. For those who adamantly prefer something else, one solution could be to allow players to pick between shaders in-game. Take Super Smash Bros., for example. On the Wii U, characters are rendered in a style like shader 1. On the 3DS, the characters have thicker outlines, similar to shader 3, to improve their visibility on the smaller screen, but it's possible to adjust the outline effect if you don't like it. Considering there will be a Vita release, perhaps this option could be available. Even if not, surely the dev team is considering how to keep the game's look consistent across platforms. This is what I was just saying in the Shoutbox. Smash on 3DS had to have a different visual style because the 3DS couldn't handle the HD look of the Wii U version. The illustrated look of character 3 would send the message that Bloodstained isn't next-gen and isn't making good use of the resources available. This would in turn hurt the sales of the game. Hopefully, the team will blend the shaders enough that the illustrated look will appear stunning and unique. Funny enough, I feel that games that does cel-shading extremely well looks way more impressive compared to the more realistic art styles other video games tend to go with during their respective generations, and that these cel-shaded games not only tend to age extremely well, but they look pretty damn impressive to the point where they can make a console appear stronger than what it actually was. Off the top of my head, if you show someone that has no experience with the playstation 1 a gameplay video of fear effect 1 or 2 and then compare said videos to like, a metal gear solid 1 gameplay video (a game which was highly praised at it's time of release for it's graphics, yet in my humble opinion definitely did not age gracefully compared to games that had an impressive art style that stands out, which tends to be cel-shaded games), I guarantee you that not only will they say that fear effect 1 or 2 looks better, but that they aged pretty well for playstation 1 games, which in turn makes the playstation 1 look more impressive. Other games that look pretty impressive and aged well compared to games going for a more realistic style during their time in my humble opinion is games like castlevania symphony of the night (of course, lol), dark cloud 2, rogue galaxy, jet set radio, tales of the abyss (I bet a lot of gamers nowadays would agree that this game aged better than the ps2 release of final fantasy 10, due to it's easy on the eyes art style), valkyria chronicles (which still looks extremely good for a playstation 3 game that came out as early as it did, in comparison to the good looking "later in the ps3's life" games like the last of us), wario land shake it (making the wii look mad nice for putting out a 2D sprite based game as good looking as this, compared to it's normal realistic 3D game offerings), veiwtiful joe, okami, odin sphere (so good that they are putting out a HD re-release for the ps4....and the game STILL looks impressive), etc. etc. |
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Post by maddogg on Jan 22, 2016 23:33:05 GMT -6
Man, how can I forget to mention guilty gear xrd? That game is on a whole nother' level of impressive compared to the realistic art style games we got on the playstation 4 now. Maybe in the next 4 years, like the last of us on the playstation 3 in comparison to older cel-shaded games like valkyria chronicles, when devs that work on the ps4 gets more used to the tech. can they put out something just as visually impressive as guilty gear, but for now, xrd is definitely the best looking ps4 game hands down.
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Post by Redogan on Jan 23, 2016 7:44:50 GMT -6
This is what I was just saying in the Shoutbox. Smash on 3DS had to have a different visual style because the 3DS couldn't handle the HD look of the Wii U version. The illustrated look of character 3 would send the message that Bloodstained isn't next-gen and isn't making good use of the resources available. This would in turn hurt the sales of the game.Man, nah. It does the opposite of that. It even took IGA's breath away, and it's the main reason this update is getting so much positive press. Are you familiar with Guilty Gear Xrd? That game got so much hype, and deservedly so, because it managed to do just this, an impressive display of graphical prowess. It's no easy task to make things look like that. They had to innovate a whole new approach to lighting, and in Unreal 3 at that. I get the impression from this update, that IGA has always been working toward character 1 (or shader 1) and the other shaders were put together to try to give something that the fans would like more. It even says that they worked the illustrated shader because the fans were asking for it. Do we want to rely on what the fans want or what IGA wants? I believe the statement about it making IGA gasp when he saw character 3 comes from the shear beauty of it and does not necessarily mean that IGA wants that in the game. He apparently has a vision for how he wants the game to look and it may or may not include the illustrated shader--even though he himself thinks it looks good. I can gasp at the beauty of a famous painting, but that doesn't mean I want my video games to look like that. IGA has NEVER said that he wants Bloodstained to look like a "painting in motion." Don't presume to know what IGA's vision for the game is until the game comes together. It is way too early for us to know where he is going with Bloodstained. |
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Post by ReySol on Jan 23, 2016 11:29:28 GMT -6
I believe in IGA`s vision, but I think this project has a LOT to do what fans want. So, if he let us vote to see our preferences, I think he would take it seriously. My opinion is that he also prefers what majority of us do, but we cannot know until he tell us. They will probably modify the shader a little more, especially after trying it out on other backgrounds for the game. I like all IGA`s 2D Castlevanias, but the decision for the anime art for Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait of ruin is something I didn`t like. Maybe Konami had something to do with it,probably the decision was made in order to appeal to younger kids/wider audience. One of things that drew me to his games was Ayami Kojima`s art. I like dark and gothic look, but more contrast and illustration look that shader 3 provides is more appealing to me, more beautiful and more unique. The community seems to agree. I can`t wait to see it in motion. I also wrote in the survey that I wish to see video of Miriam walk, jump and interact with the enemy. I am very excited about the game. It will be an exciting year, waiting for the updates and talking about the news. We are so lucky!  |
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Rixuel
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Post by Rixuel on Jan 23, 2016 11:45:40 GMT -6
Looks like Character 3 is leading.
I really can't decide between Background 1 and 3, they look similar for me. I picked Background 1, it looks more detailed I think
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 23, 2016 12:14:16 GMT -6
Man, nah. It does the opposite of that. It even took IGA's breath away, and it's the main reason this update is getting so much positive press. Are you familiar with Guilty Gear Xrd? That game got so much hype, and deservedly so, because it managed to do just this, an impressive display of graphical prowess. It's no easy task to make things look like that. They had to innovate a whole new approach to lighting, and in Unreal 3 at that. I get the impression from this update, that IGA has always been working toward character 1 (or shader 1) and the other shaders were put together to try to give something that the fans would like more. It even says that they worked the illustrated shader because the fans were asking for it. Do we want to rely on what the fans want or what IGA wants? I believe the statement about it making IGA gasp when he saw character 3 comes from the shear beauty of it and does not necessarily mean that IGA wants that in the game. He apparently has a vision for how he wants the game to look and it may or may not include the illustrated shader--even though he himself thinks it looks good. I can gasp at the beauty of a famous painting, but that doesn't mean I want my video games to look like that. IGA has NEVER said that he wants Bloodstained to look like a "painting in motion." Don't presume to know what IGA's vision for the game is until the game comes together. It is way too early for us to know where he is going with Bloodstained. I'm not presuming to know what he wants =/. I just repeated what was in the update. We can't know what he likes better because that hasn't been said. There was also that teaser of shader 3 that was released to show off their work and to tide us over until this significant update. I don't think something with a status of "I don't really prefer this, but I'll let you guys vote on it anyway" would have been featured in such a way. I think he's relatively neutral on the whole thing and will run with what we want. |
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Post by Redogan on Jan 23, 2016 13:07:11 GMT -6
I get the impression from this update, that IGA has always been working toward character 1 (or shader 1) and the other shaders were put together to try to give something that the fans would like more. It even says that they worked the illustrated shader because the fans were asking for it. Do we want to rely on what the fans want or what IGA wants? I believe the statement about it making IGA gasp when he saw character 3 comes from the shear beauty of it and does not necessarily mean that IGA wants that in the game. He apparently has a vision for how he wants the game to look and it may or may not include the illustrated shader--even though he himself thinks it looks good. I can gasp at the beauty of a famous painting, but that doesn't mean I want my video games to look like that. IGA has NEVER said that he wants Bloodstained to look like a "painting in motion." Don't presume to know what IGA's vision for the game is until the game comes together. It is way too early for us to know where he is going with Bloodstained. I'm not presuming to know what he wants =/. I just repeated what was in the update. We can't know what he likes better because that hasn't been said. There was also that teaser of shader 3 that was released to show off their work and to tide us over until this significant update. I don't think something with a status of "I don't really prefer this, but I'll let you guys vote on it anyway" would have been featured in such a way. I think he's relatively neutral on the whole thing and will run with what we want.I didn't mean to come across as accusatory. Sorry about that. For the bold part at the end: I sure hope that is not the case. The community may come into line on some things, but will undoubtedly be divided on others. IGA needs to make the decision regardless of what the community wants. The community isn't accountable for how the game turns out, but IGA is. |
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Post by Astaroth on Jan 23, 2016 14:41:38 GMT -6
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Post by jboogieg on Jan 23, 2016 15:01:24 GMT -6
IGA did say in the last Ask IGA that the final decision *is* up to him. Sure he'll take fan suggestions into consideration but all the games he's worked on makes me feel easy about just how he'll work things out.
And if he didn't want fan input then why would they put out polls and show people different options on what they can do? I'm sure he has a vision of what he wants the game to be like but I also think it's easy to believe that he has multiple visions of how things can work. Hence the polls.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 23, 2016 17:11:06 GMT -6
I'm not presuming to know what he wants =/. I just repeated what was in the update. We can't know what he likes better because that hasn't been said. There was also that teaser of shader 3 that was released to show off their work and to tide us over until this significant update. I don't think something with a status of "I don't really prefer this, but I'll let you guys vote on it anyway" would have been featured in such a way. I think he's relatively neutral on the whole thing and will run with what we want.I didn't mean to come across as accusatory. Sorry about that. For the bold part at the end: I sure hope that is not the case. The community may come into line on some things, but will undoubtedly be divided on others. IGA needs to make the decision regardless of what the community wants. The community isn't accountable for how the game turns out, but IGA is. There is no doubting that it's the case. Like jboogieg just pointed out, they're taking feedback specifically for that reason. It's not really so much a situation of "we'll do what the community wants us to", more that the team (-including- IGA, it would seem from info passed to us) are fans of both shaders, and wanted to pass the chance of giving input to us to essentially break a tie. He could still override this. If in the end, it's decided that something other than what we voted for is better for the game, I have no doubt IGA will push forward with that instead. Just so, recall the orthographic vs. perspective debate. A substantial majority were calling for a flat orthographic presentation, but the man himself decided and flat out told us "no, we're not doing that, it wasn't working". He is giving us power in pre-approved and limited ways, but in meaningful ways nonetheless. We're also free to suggest and submit anything we want, of course, in the corresponding forum. We're not in charge or bossing him around - think of us as a advisor at the table, giving feedback when prompted, and he will move forward with our input as he wills. |
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Post by Redogan on Jan 23, 2016 18:00:50 GMT -6
Good deal. That makes me feel a bit better. Sometimes I feel like the community has the reigns and it scares me because I'm finding that my views are not always falling in with the majority. Like I've told others before, this is the first project I backed on Kickstarter that actually got funded. It is a new animal for me to follow the development and to participate in the development to a degree.
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Post by jboogieg on Jan 23, 2016 18:55:27 GMT -6
Good deal. That makes me feel a bit better. Sometimes I feel like the community has the reigns and it scares me because I'm finding that my views are not always falling in with the majority. Like I've told others before, this is the first project I backed on Kickstarter that actually got funded. It is a new animal for me to follow the development and to participate in the development to a degree. Ha, if this is your first fundraiser I can see how it might feel that way. This type of input with a developer differs with the type of game and whose doing it. Some are more conservative and just put up polls having people pick what a character looks like and that's it. Or just gets feedback via betas. Then you have others that are more invested in what their player base is talking about. But a good developer is one that doesn't take *all* suggestions but rather can see what'd actually be a good idea and hash out how and whether it'd work. The Skullgirls people are a good example of this. And I easily put IGA in this camp as well. |
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quack
yey