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Post by CastleDan on Jan 21, 2016 8:16:49 GMT -6
didn't it say in the update that they would be working on blending the two together more as time goes on? If so I wouldn't worry about character 3 for that reason....
Unless I'm remembering wrong.
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Post by Neowulf on Jan 21, 2016 8:27:49 GMT -6
Well. This happened. The background isn't as painting-like as I would've preferred, but it is DANG close. Good job Inti.
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Post by neff on Jan 21, 2016 8:33:41 GMT -6
Im surprised at the choices, at first I wanted to go with char1/background 3, eschewing the blue shine on her head and preferung the softer look of the 1st shader. But I realized that the 3rd shader on Miriam actually makes her clearer and stand out from the background zoomed out, so unless we can take screenshots up close, I'm gonna have to think about this one some more.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 21, 2016 8:39:09 GMT -6
My only issue with character model #3 (or rather one significant pro for #1) is that lighting doesn't seem to affect it as much, which plays into what others are saying that she "doesn't fit in" with the background. I think some of us were hoping for a similar, flat illustration style for the backgrounds, but...I don't know how that would be possible haha.
So, taken alone as an entity unto itself, I think character 3 is an obvious winner, but for many, character 1 may be more feasible within the context of the game. For me though, the strength of the design of character 3 alone makes it deserving of inclusion. I can see how it's a hard choice for the team.
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Post by CastleDan on Jan 21, 2016 8:40:52 GMT -6
Well. This happened. The background isn't as painting-like as I would've preferred, but it is DANG close. Good job Inti. That was my problem originally upon seeing it. I remember the teaser of the painted miriam look and i thought, okay cool they're gonna give us backgrounds with this watercolor look as well. Then I saw the environment and was like.. " oh this is more in line with mirror of fate visually"..... took a second for me to appreciate the background because of my expectations but now i love it.
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Post by neff on Jan 21, 2016 8:45:12 GMT -6
My only issue with character model #3 (or rather one significant pro for #1) is that lighting doesn't seem to affect it as much, which plays into what others are saying that she "doesn't fit in" with the background. I think some of us were hoping for a similar, flat illustration style for the backgrounds, but...I don't know how that would be possible haha. So, taken alone as an entity unto itself, I think character 3 is an obvious winner, but for many, character 1 may be more feasible within the context of the game. For me though, the strength of the design of character 3 alone makes it deserving of inclusion. I can see how it's a hard choice for the team. It is, because its choosing one advantage over another. Which do you prioritize more: fitting Miriam in with the setting(which helps immersion), or the ease of seeing Miriam in gameplay(which helps prevent getting lost in chaotic/dark situations? I think there are even mulyuple CV games that have tended towards one option or the other, and I will say both shaders play to their strengths well.
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thrashinuva
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[TI2] I'm interested in this.
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Post by thrashinuva on Jan 21, 2016 8:46:25 GMT -6
The thing is, I don't want to risk screwing up that nice background for one that would fit Miriam better. When I really think about it, I don't really think Miriam 1 fits the background either, so I think Miriam 3 is the best regardless.
The background is honestly gorgeous, and I don't want to remove detail for the sake of a style shift. It would be nice if we could find a happy medium, but if there isn't one then I don't want to flip to the other side.
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Post by gunlocksp on Jan 21, 2016 8:48:51 GMT -6
Definitely Background 1/Character 3
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jan 21, 2016 8:50:35 GMT -6
When i first looked upon the new update I realized why it took so long. It was definitely worth the wait. The amount of work that IGA and the team did to bring us this deserves my deepest respects. As far as the background and character blend is concerned i think when there was no background i was a fan of the shader that was prevoiusly displayed in Miriam's model....but now i am not so sure as the same shader gives of a cartoonic vibe in both the backgrounds as Redogan has previously stated. As for the background i believe bloodstained should be darker and more gothic so background 3 is to my liking . So i think i'm going to go with character 1 background 3 for a more realistic but dark/gothic feel. Yes, this. I feel I need to say it again. Shader 3 makes an excellent character look until you put it with the awesome new background. Then it just looks like something pasted on. In the Ask IGA, he even said he didn't want to head in the cel-shaded direction (which to me would include the Guilty Gear Xrd look). I think there are a few things contributing to the "pasted on" appearance. - It's a still image. I think seeing it in motion will make a difference.
- There seems to be some sort of weird lighting issue. She's got a bit of a bluish halo around her, but the lighting in the room is warm. Fixing that would make a big difference.
- Those outer "ink lines" are a bit too thick, IMO. I think they'd look better at about 75% of their current thickness.
As for the art direction itself, I really think that the stylized cel shaded look is going to be better in motion than the plain 3D model when restricted to a 2D plane. If Shader 3 is an analogue to Guilty Gear, then Shader 1 is closer to Tekken, and as nice as the characters can look in that game, it looks really weird watching undisguised 3D characters walking back and forth with no 3D movement.
Then too, there's the issue of the art design and model. Miriam is already a manga/anime style character by design. She has been since the first piece of concept art(and for that matter so have almost all of the IGAVania characters). Trying to put semi-realistic textures and lighting on that is far more of a mismatch than the current background and Shader 3 Miriam. And that's assuming you can even see any of that detail. Go look at the sized down pics on page 1. At a smaller scale, all of those details disappear, and you're left a very plain low contrast looking model that just looks kind of flat like RWBY or a PS2 era JRPG. Meanwhile, because it relies on high contrast shading for detail instead of finely detailed textures, Shader 3 still looks distinct and interesting when zoomed out. It scales better.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 9:28:51 GMT -6
It's good that 3/3 is winning. My schedule is too tight to go around killing people with wrong opinions.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Jan 21, 2016 9:29:07 GMT -6
I hope people click the pictures in their e-mails and also check them side by side to make a decision.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Jan 21, 2016 9:36:31 GMT -6
Wow. I guess Im the only one who prefers shader 1/1. The other one makes Miriam look like a weird acid trip. And the blue outlines are kinda odd. Shader three on the background significantly brightens the environment, while the other shader has a nicer, more dynamic range with light and shadow. The third shader just looks too blown out to me. With that said, EVERYTHING looks so much better. And did I spot a blood fountain? Woah. That's pretty cool. You're not the only one mate, I think Background 1/Character 1 is the way to go too. Clicking on the pictures and comparing them side by side I can see why people would like Character 3 and Background 3; Character 3 seems more of a personal preference to me but when it comes to Background 3 I feel it's inferior to Background 1. By no means do they look bad they're actually very good it's just by comparison I feel like Background 1 looks nicer. I also think if I had to choose just one Character 1 is more fitting too.
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 9:40:57 GMT -6
I am a fan of C 3/ B 1.
I am glad we have such a wide range of opinions on this. Personally I like the blue tint to Miriam for C 3, and the strong black outline as well. Just a style preference I guess.
And as for the Background I feel B 1 does a better job at blending the shadows. Feels more realistic. Also things are less silvery and bright. Like someone mentioned before, at the far left that extra light is a bit off putting, where is it coming from? Also I dislike that I can see under the stairs so clearly.
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Ciel
Executor of the Church
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じーっ
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Post by Ciel on Jan 21, 2016 9:43:23 GMT -6
So, someone in a specific anonymous forum made this: A mix between the two shaders. IMO it's perfect, though I don't know why. Thoughts?
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Kaius
Loyal Familiar
[TI2]My heart is blood, my blood is glass, my soul is frozen.
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Post by Kaius on Jan 21, 2016 9:46:37 GMT -6
3/3, all the way !The Character 3 is breathtaking ! I almost yelled first time I saw it. The castle looks magnificiant and this blood fountain is just perfect ! Black lines bring a lot for the colors. I like the 3 as it's brighter and warmer, the colors are more contrasted. The overall look is darker. Everytime I see Character 1 I think about Smash Bros. It really has a close design in my opinion (and I can only hope she will appear in the game one day). IGA and Inti made an amazing work on these pictures and just to think about the full game makes me wonder... 2017 is indeed far away but it also means we all have time to give support and feedback. This community is amazing, so much artists, it feels like we actually have a way to help the devlopment. Thanks for joining Mana, by the way ! Well, I voted 3/3. Black lines make it a perfect close-up. It's true I prefer Character 1 for the zoomed out picture but according to what Mana said, the game will show a closer point of view. Well then, I can only wish you best and good luck for the rest of the journey ! You got my approval on this one ! edit : Agree with Ciel, just plain perfect. Smoothier black lines, still a good contrast.
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Post by CastleDan on Jan 21, 2016 10:00:45 GMT -6
So, someone in a specific anonymous forum made this: A mix between the two shaders. IMO it's perfect, though I don't know why. Thoughts? That is actually what I wanted. I preferred the look of 1's head and the look of 3's body and it mixes that quite well with this.
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thrashinuva
Master Alchemist
[TI2] I'm interested in this.
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Post by thrashinuva on Jan 21, 2016 10:05:23 GMT -6
Nah I still prefer C3.
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Post by neff on Jan 21, 2016 10:05:42 GMT -6
So, someone in a specific anonymous forum made this: A mix between the two shaders. IMO it's perfect, though I don't know why. Thoughts? Why does this keep happening!? Where both combined look the best?! xD
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Post by jboogieg on Jan 21, 2016 10:06:42 GMT -6
Yeah, I'm gonna have to go with 3/3 S well. I dithered on the background choice but I went with 3 for that as well because it reminded me a lot of the DS games. Plus SotN for all its darkness also had a lot of brightness too.
Though the main reason that eased my choice is knowing it's just the start and it'll be worked on.
That shader though. No complaints!
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jan 21, 2016 10:32:48 GMT -6
So, someone in a specific anonymous forum made this: A mix between the two shaders. IMO it's perfect, though I don't know why. Thoughts? Not a fan. It's a pretty enough piece of art, but one of the best things about Shader 3 is the aggressive shading(and even then I think it could stand to be more so), which helps it maintain visual coherence at multiple scales. This one goes back to soft shading, which is just going to look flat once you zoom out.
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