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Post by CastleDan on Jan 12, 2016 15:00:48 GMT -6
I want everyones thoughts on this. I know this isn't castlevania but in my heart it will be the continuation of that to me. I think part of what made that series so special is at the heart of it was the vampire lore and their own take of Dracula as the main villain.
At the heart of Bloodstained isn't a classic villain but a brand new one, wearing attire that feels fitting of Dracula but they've made clear it has nothing to do with that.
For anyone else, has it been hard for you to accept such an iconic villain within the IGAVANIA games will be sitting it out, and that something of no classic origin is picking up the reins?
I'm happy this is telling a new story, and with new characters but a part of me is sad that dracula isn't a part of this, isn't apart of this story, vampires....are such a great villain with such a great tone and atmosphere that it brings. I just hope what they come up with can give me those same vibes.
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Post by neff on Jan 12, 2016 15:26:22 GMT -6
I think the Lackula can bring something new to the table, rather than detract from it. Dracula often stuck by his tropes a little too closely in later games.
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Post by Clear on Jan 12, 2016 15:48:31 GMT -6
Oh I believe we'll be getting the same vibes for an Igavania game without Dracula. This I will not worry about. From all the concept art we've seen so far, a Dracula-like character existing within the environment and scenery we can imagine doesn't seem out of place, not even the slightest. Given that I've played and enjoyed MegaTen games for some time now, as long as there are some demons to fight along the way to the true final boss, I think it really shouldn't be that difficult for Iga's teams to recreate and then refine the atmosphere and tone from any of his past titles and keep me satisfied throughout. Add in Yamane's and Yamada's music pieces, and the issue becomes pretty much completely dissolved. To me, Dracula is not only an icon of Iga's past work, but also of Konami. In other words, I can't think of Dracula and the image of the Konami logo as being mutually exclusive of each other. And Konami have had topics of negative discussion as of late. So for all this, including the fact that Iga is currently not associated with Konami, I'm glad and somewhat relieved that Dracula has no part in Bloodstained. Besides, he's busy trying to entice casino guests towards erotic violence and pulling the lever
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Post by ReySol on Jan 12, 2016 15:52:35 GMT -6
For me, Dracula was one of the most important ingredients of Castlevania games, it is what made the games more exciting. In the past games, I loved the music, various art styles, atmosphere, 2D gameplay, RPG elements, enemy design..among many other things. But playing in Dracula`s castle produced a specific feeling that only his legend can evoke. I really enjoy when he is the master of the castle we are exploring. So the lack of Dracula and attraction of his character will be hard on me, but I still welcome this new game with new characters and ideas.
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Post by Jango on Jan 12, 2016 15:53:36 GMT -6
This is something I was actually recently thinking about. A huge part of Castlevania's coolness was that the primary "antagonist" was always the same person. Something I think the Lords of Shadow series did wisely was to make Dracula the protagonist. This wasn't something that was unique to their alternate timeline. Dracula was arguably always the series' true main character, with each individual entry's playable character merely being a vehicle to take us back into Dracula's world. I wonder if the original developers intended to mirror the approach of the novel in this way, telling a story about Dracula through the eyes of everyone except his.
I would love for Bloodstained to have a similar over-arching anchor character, but I'm not sure that's going to happen. It doesn't have to be Dracula or even a vampire. Just a character that can be super old. It would actually be fun if Bloodstained used Death how Castlevania used Dracula. Although Dracula is public domain and free to use, Death has a much more universal scope and is equally well-known. Oh well, I can dream. haha
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 12, 2016 16:22:29 GMT -6
This used to be a concern of mine. I'm good now. Let's be brave enough to criticize the way Castlevania used Dracula a bit and take comfort in knowing we don't have to worry about it anymore. Now... If by some miracle Dracula ends up being the boss behind the boss, I would be happy. However I feel like getting away from Dracula has its advantages.
The first Castlevania was just iconic horror in all it's glory. Dracula was the king of horror and therefore needed to be the big boss just like in Monster Squad. Dracula has been done so many times by so many people that his character is reduced to it's basic elements. No one except Bram Stoker can really give us a Dracula story that we can be 100% cannon about. So with that in mind, people tend to have the characteristics of what Dracula means to them, and will be happy when the Dracula they are seeing in new media fits with their pre existing impression of who Dracula is. The first Castlevania didn't have to worry about this because Dracula didn't have any speaking lines in the game. Later stories had to develop the character. Just Alucard's existence in III gave some kind of depth we didn't have before. SotN gave us much more. Do you really think it would be fun to have to write a reboot of Dracula? I think a writer could accomplish developing better characters without being constrained by previous impressions.
It's IGA. He has Dracula very well in his head. If he wrote Dracula into this we would naturally try to tie it to Castlevania cannon.
We're you satisfied that Mathias had to be Dracula in place of the Bram Stokers Dracula? I'm sure many were, but how does Mathias really become the character we see later as Dracula? Perhaps that gap exists to give some room between a villan IGA wanted to write vs the Dracula we had in mind.
Dracula looks different from game to game most of the time. His battle moves carried over, but each game had you wondering how they were going to do Dracula that time. You kind of knew what to expect, only tweaked. I'm happy with those games, but I'm ready to see what else we can have.
Vampires are cool. If they aren't in the game it's not going to kill it for me though. Could IGA use Dracula in Bloodstained and make him both similar and different enough from Castlevania Dracula to please fans? It's best left unattempted.
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Post by xCROOKEDx on Jan 12, 2016 16:38:25 GMT -6
Most of the characterization of a Castlevania game comes from the castle and the gameplay mechanics, not really from the characters. Dracula could have been replaced by a lot of different characters and it still would have been a Castlevania game (regardless of the Japanese name). While he's iconic now, he's not really that interesting of a character.
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Post by crocodile on Jan 12, 2016 16:39:09 GMT -6
I can't say I'm too remiss about losing Dracula. I certainly appreciated how he kind of gave the series a through-line connecting most entries of the game. There is a real sense of history throughout the Castlevania franchise between the Belmonts (& friends) and Dracula and I've always liked that. However, the meat and potatoes of the Castlevania experience have always been everything surrounding Dracula - the atmosphere, the other monsters, the castle, the music, etc. rather than Dracula himself. In fact, in most of the Castlevania games, I'd consider Dracula barely a character at all. If IGA intends for this to be a franchise though, I'm really looking forward to seeing the groundwork that is laid down and how it might be expanded over the years.
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Post by Sliditanko on Jan 12, 2016 17:12:39 GMT -6
I don't find it disturbing or lore lacking anything without Dracula around this time. It was just one point of view how Dracula was pictured in the 'vania game series and I think there should be a new leaf in this story anyway. I personally should have rioted if IGA chose to move towards some familiar way, not challenging himself at all. I know he's such a visionary and I'm confident about how this lore turns out in the end. Now that he's free from the chains of continuity of the Castlevania franchise, there's no need to think about what happened then and should it have an effect on the present. Bloodstained should remain as a base for some bigger picture for the future.. not living the shadows of the past of what it used to be. That includes the main villain. I don't want him to remind of something that has already been told.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 12, 2016 18:31:39 GMT -6
This game will land in 1783-1784 as best as I can tell. That would line up in the CV timeline between Harmony of Dissonance and Rondo of Blood. If you really want to try and consider this an unofficial CV game, it would be detrimental to include the appearance of Dracula. One might be tempted to compare Alchemy's Philosopher Stone to the Crimson Stone of CV. It would be interesting if IGA wrote this in a way to where it can't be proven that the the games exist in different realities. Perhaps they could have things that are implied and picked up on by clever fans that could actually tie them together.
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Post by CastleDan on Jan 12, 2016 18:58:54 GMT -6
I'd argue Dracula started to lose his coolness after SOTN. I feel like SOTN was the perfect end of that story... His son confronts him and tells him the last words of his mother as he's about to die....for good.
I think the appeal of dracula is it brings all this gothic darkness to the project. Someone who feeds on the blood of others, who hate humanity, who's wife was killed by humans... There's a lot of creepy, gothic lore behind it all.
I just hope they kinda capture all that but with a new character.
I would be kinda bummed if there isn't some sorta vampire boss. I mean even a boss like Orlox was awesome.
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Post by Zechs on Jan 12, 2016 19:00:11 GMT -6
I'm sure we will see something 'Dracula'. Especially if the community asked for something along those lines... Konami doesn't own Dracula. He would be an interesting mino boss. Somewhere, Miriam crosses him, fights him. Kills him then it proceeds to a false ending... Just because...
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Post by CastleDan on Jan 12, 2016 19:39:06 GMT -6
I'd love for Dracula to take up the "Death" role...
He's the new Grim Reaper...
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Post by GenericSoda on Jan 12, 2016 20:33:32 GMT -6
I feel like the farther we are from Dracula the better. Bloodstained is its own thing, so the *wink wink nudge nudge* stuff with Dracula will feel really forced for people familiar with the game, and really jarring for people not familiar with the game. Additionally, I feel that IGA establishing Bloodstained as its own thing and making bank with contributions means that the fans support IGA making things happen rather than just wanting Castlevania.
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thrashinuva
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Post by thrashinuva on Jan 12, 2016 20:48:55 GMT -6
I'm indifferent on whether or not Dracula is in the game, but I don't want him to be the focus at all. They have a pretty good premise that I think would be ruined if we found out "because Dracula".
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Post by Cale on Jan 12, 2016 21:53:56 GMT -6
I am a little sad to be losing Dracula, but hopefully this means we can have a bunch of cool monsters from other lore. . . I bet no one can guess what I want in this game.
*Rolls eyes*
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 12, 2016 22:03:29 GMT -6
I am a little sad to be losing Dracula, but hopefully this means we can have a bunch of cool monsters from other lore. . . I bet no one can guess what I want in this game. *Rolls eyes* Something that sounds like, "Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!" I feel I might want to use the word Lackula for lack of Dracula in Bloodstained from now on... but that's a bit too silly so I think I've got it out just by writing this.
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Post by jim on Jan 12, 2016 22:26:00 GMT -6
I'd argue Dracula started to lose his coolness after SOTN. I feel like SOTN was the perfect end of that story... His son confronts him and tells him the last words of his mother as he's about to die....for good. Actually if you think about out it, in context with the exchange between Dracula and Richter and then the exchange between Dracula and Alucard, I almost wonder if at that point Dracula was actually TIRED of being summoned back. I mean that's the kind of sense that I was getting. Even with later games it really sounded less and less like it was Dracula's idea to be reborn and more some other party that wanted Dracula's power either for themselves or through Dracula bestowing some gift to them for restoring him. I mean at least in the first few games (i.e. CV1-3, Adventure, Rondo) it sounded like it was Dracula's idea to get himself restored, but after SotN it just honestly started sounding like he was more of a pawn or a means to an end rather than the architect.... Which I suppose with a character like Dracula who kept getting defeated that might be the natural progression of the story line. Heck, maybe that was supposed to be the big *twist* to the 1999 demon wars was at the end you get to Dracula and he actually helps (tells you how or somehow aids you) to destroy him "once and for all" because he's tired of being "dragged back into the living world" by some crazy group only to be defeated once again. One of those things of, "when you've live for that many centuries you start to see things and understand things that no one should" kind of deal... You know, getting tired of fighting a loosing battle thing But I digress. Lakcula you say!? I agree that including Dracula explicitly would not be a wise move at this point. Not to say that he couldn't be referenced indirectly or even directly, and not to say that in a sequel or subsequent game he couldn't be one of the characters or bosses you encounter. But at this point Bloodstained should stand on its own feet and not rely that heavily on its predecessor/sibling to gain traction. It really needs to make a place of its own. Of which, I am more than confident it will do.
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Post by Astaroth on Jan 12, 2016 23:15:06 GMT -6
the first cv took all the old universal horror monsters (plus grim and medusa) and dumped them into a single place, if the mummy and franky had been the final bosses and dracula had been the second half to the vampire bat fight, then theyy probably wouldve gone on to be the big bad/left hand of the series, it really wasnt till rondo that he had any personality beyond grah, bad guy do bad things, fireball teleport fireball final form dead, all of his personality and badassedry came from outside the games, in game he was just a really really hard final boss
once you got to rondo and sotn, thats where he started to become fleshed out and his story takes a slight departure, from being the badguy cause the game needs one to being this guy whos really pissed off at the world cause they roasted his girlfriend (probably wasnt the nicest guy before that but i doubt he wouldve become more than a local nuisance), even though in a very roundabout way it hearkens back to bram stokers version where vlad becomes a vampire after losing his wife and cursing god for it (even though loi later used that exact reason as to why dracula exists in the first place, albeit a bit more drawn out storywise), most of the other games since sotn he doesnt show until the final 10 minutes of the game, but he does take the time to taunt you and have the i will return speech, but this lack of screentime keeps him relegated to the endgame boogeyman, everybody wants to bring him back cause reasons, he shows up and dies instantly, destroy castle roll credits
aos/dos, while for the most part not actually featuring dracula unless some specific things happen which play back into the previous reasons for dracula being pissed at the world and wanting to watch it burn, does serve to flesh out dracula and give him a personality that is pretty admirable, and make the twist of that series rather human
then you get los, which takes a gravelly mouthed belmont on a vengeance quest to kill things and take their shit because he wants the power to bring back his dead wife, and thats pretty much the extent of his personality, he just stays this angry death machine throughout the whole game, regardless of what happens, and then he magically becomes dracula for reasons you dont even get to see unless you buy the dlc (goddamn you los forgotten one, i hate your aoe happy ass so fucking much _|_|_ \>o</ _|_|_) and satan is the new big bad cause reasons, and then mof/los2 happens, and i havent finished alucards section yet and i got fed up with los2 like an hour in cause the stealth section SUCKS
so i think having the main badguy be known to the player and have a connection to the main character from the beginning of the game is a good thing, he wont have the pitfall of being a preexisting character like dracula did, hell have the whole game to show his personality instead of being confined to the final minutes, and the castle being a reflection of his will means Igas team will have plenty of chances to work in different facets of that personality throughout the game, all the way from his pure desire to keep miriam safe from harm to his rage at the world for doing this to him, to his sadness at what he probably feels is the betrayal of the 2 people he trusted who are now coming after him
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Post by Goobsausage on Jan 12, 2016 23:34:21 GMT -6
I'm perfectly fine with Dracula not being involved with Bloodstained. While it was pitched as a Castlevania successor, I'd much rather see the game carve out its own identity and distance itself from story details or public domain characters like that.
But if there's a need for a Dracula-like character that ties all of the games together, I can see Gebel filling that role. We don't know a whole lot about the lore at this point, but I think it could be explained in-universe by saying his crystal curse fully consumed him, making the first game his origin story.
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