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Post by aindriu on Aug 26, 2015 16:13:30 GMT -6
The fact of the matter is that "gothic" isn't just a simple shorthand for a certain kind of fashion statement that can applied to anything. Context is everything. There are specific themes and conventions that need to be adhered to and respected in order to a thing to truly be considered gothic. The modern concept of "gothic" is derived from literature in which the macabre, dark, psychotic, evil, and depraved is all exploited for the sake of terror, thrill, melancholy, etc., and often with a slight dash of romance. The very nature is dark. The expression of these themes doesn't need to restrict itself to one type of musical genre, no, but there are certain genres or compositions that are more fitting than others based on both the composition of the individual piece as well as the lyrical content. Having said that, not every instance of classical music is intrinsically gothic either; though older instruments from what we perceive to be gothic eras are generally accepted as being an immersive way to put people in a period's context, that doesn't suddenly make Mozart's "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" gothic. It has to have the same kinds of themes that are represented in the literature; minor keys, melancholy melodies, ominous dirges, as well as lyrics that also fit within the theme.
Jazz, from it's inception, is a musical movement that served as a means to break away from classical, academic, elite music. The goal was to put an upbeat danceable and optimistic approach to music. By that very nature alone, jazz is, without a doubt, the opposite way to express a gothic aesthetic. Even if later songs in jazz history eventually wind down and get sad and depressing by adding a few blues elements, that doesn't make it gothic either. It just makes it sad jazz. If a goth girl is making jazz music, that doesn't make it gothic jazz, it makes it jazz from a person who identifies as gothic. Sad doesn't equate to gothic. Sad only equates to gothic when in a gothic context. Having said that, that isn't to say that I don't think jazz is an exceptionally diverse and emotionally varied expression of music; I am merely saying that it isn't gothic and that to express something gothic with jazz music is like expressing something an ancient medieval viking thing with pop music; as great as the music may be in and of itself, that doesn't mean it fits well with certain concepts.
It is therefore that I say that I really hope that the $250 contribution I made to this project doesn't result in a physical copy of a soundtrack, featured in an game I helped fund, is full of displaced jazz that legitimately and understandably hindered my ability to immerse myself in certain installments of the IGAvania legacy.
Having said THAT, the two songs provided thus far are... okay. The "Theme of Bloodstained" echoes the music from Circle of the Moon, which is okay; reference to compositions made for games in the past are expected. The Midi keyboards sound a little out-of-date for a modern next-gen video game, but that's a minor complaint. All-in-all, it's not a deal-breaking experience. The second track, "Cursed Orphan" sounds more or less perfect. It sounds urgent, dire, serious, has gothic elements of a melancholy violin as well as an ominous pipe organ, church bells, and the ferocity of distorted heavy metal guitars. So far so good.
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Post by gunlord500 on Aug 26, 2015 16:44:11 GMT -6
Well, two things in response to this: First, my choice of example may have been flawed, since I don't think most of Bloodstained's music will have lyrics. If Symphony of the Night is anything to go by, we may have an opening or ending song with lyrics, but for the most part it'll be instrumented. Second, there's nothing inherent in the definition of jazz that prevents a jazz composition from incorporating minor keys, melancholy melodies, etc. Granted, I suspect I don't have as much formal compositional training as you do so I may end up conceding this point, but from what I've read the defining properties of jazz include things such as blue notes, syncopation, and improvisation. As far as I know, there's nothing about those things that precludes scary or ominous music. Now, this isn't entirely true. I would say you have a point, that jazz does have an 'anti-establishment' (so to speak) aspect to it, but not all jazz tunes are upbeat and optimistic. I can think of several that are very slow paced and contemplative--in fact, that's why jazz songs were often used in the soundtracks of noir mysteries back in the day, to sent up an atmosphere of mystery and ensconce the viewer in a shady, dangerous milieu. I think you acknowledge that when you say, But I also think it's a fair response to ask you to be a bit more specific when you talk about a "gothic context." I don't mean to be confrontational or anything; I'm genuinely curious. How do you define a 'gothic context?' For instance, why is metal appropriate for a gothic setting? You mentioned earlier it was because of the chord progression being derived from/similar to gothic or classical compositions. If that's the case, however, wouldn't a jazz composition in a minor key involving gothic/baroque/classical chord progressions be acceptable? I certainly wouldn't deny any metal/gothic similarities, but I don't see how metal is *inherently* or *necessarily* more gothic than jazz. Fair enough, though I think it may be a little early to worry about that just yet...there's no guarantee any jazz (or pop, swing, etc.) will show up in Bloodstained I wouldn't be surprised if one or two jazzy tracks showed up, but I think it's a fair bet the OST, when released, won't be full of nothing but jazz. I agree, that would be inappropriate, since diversity is a good thing in music Yeah, I agree with most of that. I would wager we might get a fully orchestrated or otherwise improved version of the Bloodstained Theme with something better than a Midi keyboard when the game comes out, though
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Post by qaantar on Aug 27, 2015 0:06:17 GMT -6
https%3A//soundcloud.com/qaantar/bloodstained-theme-minivariations-harpsichordI'll just leave this link here....
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Post by aindriu on Aug 27, 2015 0:59:21 GMT -6
But I also think it's a fair response to ask you to be a bit more specific when you talk about a "gothic context." I don't mean to be confrontational or anything; I'm genuinely curious. How do you define a 'gothic context?' For instance, why is metal appropriate for a gothic setting? You mentioned earlier it was because of the chord progression being derived from/similar to gothic or classical compositions. If that's the case, however, wouldn't a jazz composition in a minor key involving gothic/baroque/classical chord progressions be acceptable? I certainly wouldn't deny any metal/gothic similarities, but I don't see how metal is *inherently* or *necessarily* more gothic than jazz. Before I begin, I want to thank you for being able to have this dialogue without immature animosity; that speaks volumes in an age where such is commonplace in internet discourse. Kudos and respect to you. No on to my best explanation: First, I want to clarify that when I am speaking about "gothic", I am not referring to the "goth" music subgenre featuring bands like Bauhaus, Christian Death, Sex Gang Children which evolved from post punk and eventually evolved into Deathrock and Industrial, blah blah blah. The goth scene has its own sort of rules and regulations that would just overcomplicate things in this particular discussion. When I say "gothic" I am speaking of gothic themes, unrelated to the "goth" music subculture. As an example, Cradle of Filth is a "gothic" black metal band, but not a "goth" band. Make sense? So. What makes something inherently gothic? As I've stated earlier, our general concept of the term "gothic" is in direct relation to the literary movement in which many early horror concepts were conceived and often blended with a slight hint of romanticism. Spirits, ghosts, demons, murders, madness, suicide, chaos, the eeriness of the woods, sorcery, satanism, are all themes that are commonplace within any given gothic narrative, but what separates the gothic from what would otherwise be just another description of "horror" is the romanticism style that was inherent throughout a specific timeframe of literary history (1760s-late 1800's). Visually speaking, if one is attempting to make a gothic narrative or story, in a movie for example, making it a period piece set within the aforementioned timeframe is one very easy way to get the gothic context across, but it isn't inherently necessary. Beetlejuice and Nightmare Before Christmas are quite clearly gothic and are both contemporary. Musically speaking, the best way to get something across as "gothic" in a movie or a video game would be, once again, to make reference to the music that was prevalent throughout the heyday of the gothic literary movement; baroque and classical with some opera here and there, all with compositional pieces that convey ominous occurrences, the supernatural, sadness, horror, melancholy, etc. Lots of minor keys, of course. If one were not to use classical or baroque music, one genre that is inherently ominous is metal; "the devil's music". Though metal itself is inherently ominous, it isn't necessarily inherently "gothic" just as horror itself isn't inherently "gothic". It all depends on how the song is composed. Of course, the fact that metal often uses classical compositional techniques helps quite a bit. We can comfortably call Cradle of Filth a gothic metal band because of the romanticism mixed with the horror, melancholy, and supernatural themes. Jazz, although it can represent a various mix of emotional expressions, doesn't have any of the aforementioned gothic elements within its context. When one thinks of ominous, melancholy, or eerie jazz music, the association it has is with that of it's era, in which the concept of "gothic" was a thing of the past. "Noire" is the genre that is most affiliated with dark jazz music accompanying a narrative. That is, more or less, what I mean when I say, "gothic context". That's the best I can do for the moment; I've got to wake up early for work in the morning and still have a few things to do before I go to bed. Again, thank you for actually wanting to hear me out.
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Post by aindriu on Aug 27, 2015 1:00:12 GMT -6
https%3A//soundcloud.com/qaantar/bloodstained-theme-minivariations-harpsichordI'll just leave this link here.... GLORIOUS!
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Post by aindriu on Aug 27, 2015 1:03:26 GMT -6
Fair enough, though I think it may be a little early to worry about that just yet...there's no guarantee any jazz (or pop, swing, etc.) will show up in Bloodstained I wouldn't be surprised if one or two jazzy tracks showed up, but I think it's a fair bet the OST, when released, won't be full of nothing but jazz. I agree, that would be inappropriate, since diversity is a good thing in music I can totally abide with one or two jazzier songs in the same way that I did with Symphony of the Night, so that's no worry. I just hope it doesn't go the way of Portrait of Ruin is all.
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Post by gunlord500 on Aug 27, 2015 3:07:22 GMT -6
*snugles Aindriu contentedly* It's what I do Thank you for being nice as well! But anyways, to make sure I understand your position: You contend that being gothic specifically (as opposed to just general horror) means you have to combine the romanticism present in 18th to 19th century literature *along with* dread, supernatural stuff, ominous happenings, etc. present in horror fiction. As you say, the best way to do this would be to use 18th and 19th century style music as well (specifically Baroque, Classical, and maybe Opera), but then you also say that a more contemporary for that's also suitable for this purpose is Metal. You also say that Jazz is less relatable to the 18th/19th century time periods we're looking at, which is understandable, since Bloodstained also takes place in the 19th century (I think--Industrial Revolution-era Europe, right?). However, I still question whether that makes it less appropriate than Metal for use in Bloodstained. You say "one genre that is inherently ominous is metal," but I'm not sure I agree. I can think of several metal songs which are inspiring, uplifting, or even romantic (in terms of love, not Romanticism) rather than ominous. For instance, Judas Priests's "Another Thing Comin'," which seems like the sort of thing to pump you up and excite you rather than scare you. You also say Metal is considered the "devil's music," but IIRC one of the reasons for that is that it uses the tritone, which (according to Wikipedia) was referred to as "diabolis in musica" or something similar, according to Wikipedia at least. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on either point, but why wouldn't one be able to make a Jazz tune with the 'diabolic' tritone or an ominous minor chord? You're right to say that Metal owes a lot compositionally to Classical, but so does Jazz--IIRC, Ken Burns went so far as to call Duke Ellington "America's Mozart" in his documentary on the artform! So I'm not sure Jazz is much less Classical than Metal is. Anyways, have a good sleep, we'll all be here when you wake up
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Post by Lelygax on Aug 27, 2015 3:43:15 GMT -6
https%3A//soundcloud.com/qaantar/bloodstained-theme-minivariations-harpsichordI'll just leave this link here.... Something with this calming tone would make a wonderful shop theme Fair enough, though I think it may be a little early to worry about that just yet...there's no guarantee any jazz (or pop, swing, etc.) will show up in Bloodstained I wouldn't be surprised if one or two jazzy tracks showed up, but I think it's a fair bet the OST, when released, won't be full of nothing but jazz. I agree, that would be inappropriate, since diversity is a good thing in music I can totally abide with one or two jazzier songs in the same way that I did with Symphony of the Night, so that's no worry. I just hope it doesn't go the way of Portrait of Ruin is all. Do you mean this? If yes, thanks for explaining until I could understand your point of view. This is one of my less favorite songs, while I don't dislike it I've never felt like it should be a entrance theme, since you would need to hear it a lot of times because of backtracking and it just feels boring after a long play. This one always felt like Final Fantasy Tactics to me: But even so, there is a lot of music from Portrait of ruin that I like a lot, Jail of Jewels for example.
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Post by Togposh on Aug 27, 2015 6:43:06 GMT -6
I like the build up in crazed Moon and the song it's self but it truly does not fit in with the castlevania atmosphere.
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Post by aindriu on Aug 27, 2015 10:02:44 GMT -6
Do you mean this? If yes, thanks for explaining until I could understand your point of view. This is one of my less favorite songs, while I don't dislike it I've never felt like it should be a entrance theme, since you would need to hear it a lot of times because of backtracking and it just feels boring after a long play. This one always felt like Final Fantasy Tactics to me: But even so, there is a lot of music from Portrait of ruin that I like a lot, Jail of Jewels for example. Yes, it is to Invitation of a Crazed Moon that I am specifically referring to. It was my first impression and the only lasting one. Agreed, Operation "VK" does sound similar to something from FF Tactics, but I feel that FF Tactics had a bit more to offer as far as atmosphere and complexity. Operation "VK" feels underwhelming, especially for a boss battle theme. Jail of Jewels is admittedly excellent, and I think part of that is due to the fact that it feels like a conventional Castlevania leitmotif. I suppose I overlooked this one due to, as I stated, the first impression of Invitation of a Crazed Moon.
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Post by aindriu on Aug 27, 2015 10:32:51 GMT -6
*snugles Aindriu contentedly* It's what I do Thank you for being nice as well! But anyways, to make sure I understand your position: You contend that being gothic specifically (as opposed to just general horror) means you have to combine the romanticism present in 18th to 19th century literature *along with* dread, supernatural stuff, ominous happenings, etc. present in horror fiction. As you say, the best way to do this would be to use 18th and 19th century style music as well (specifically Baroque, Classical, and maybe Opera), but then you also say that a more contemporary for that's also suitable for this purpose is Metal. You also say that Jazz is less relatable to the 18th/19th century time periods we're looking at, which is understandable, since Bloodstained also takes place in the 19th century (I think--Industrial Revolution-era Europe, right?). However, I still question whether that makes it less appropriate than Metal for use in Bloodstained. You say "one genre that is inherently ominous is metal," but I'm not sure I agree. I can think of several metal songs which are inspiring, uplifting, or even romantic (in terms of love, not Romanticism) rather than ominous. For instance, Judas Priests's "Another Thing Comin'," which seems like the sort of thing to pump you up and excite you rather than scare you. You also say Metal is considered the "devil's music," but IIRC one of the reasons for that is that it uses the tritone, which (according to Wikipedia) was referred to as "diabolis in musica" or something similar, according to Wikipedia at least. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on either point, but why wouldn't one be able to make a Jazz tune with the 'diabolic' tritone or an ominous minor chord? You're right to say that Metal owes a lot compositionally to Classical, but so does Jazz--IIRC, Ken Burns went so far as to call Duke Ellington "America's Mozart" in his documentary on the artform! So I'm not sure Jazz is much less Classical than Metal is. Anyways, have a good sleep, we'll all be here when you wake up Daww, you! Yes, that is a good summary of my perspective on the matter. And, very true; not all metal in and of itself is a good candidate for "gothic" themes. There are many different subgeneres of metal that do not coincide with the gothic context; hairband metal, redneck metal, nu metal, or death metal (death metal being akin to the difference between horror and "gothic", more or less) aren't really ways to convey a gothic theme. However, the one thing that all metal has in common is that it is generally considered a darker music genre from its inception (Black Sabbath), so that is how it differs from jazz and makes it easier to apply gothic themes; by association, metal is already amenable to the themes if the individual band or musician is wanting to take things to a gothic direction. This is something that I don't see with jazz. Although it is an exceptionally expressive and diverse music genre, it isn't a genre that, like metal, is easily accommodating to gothic themes. If one were to take the Bela Lugosi Dracula, The Innocents, or even Nosferatu, and if one had to impose a modern score upon them, jazz could potentially work, but I feel it would be more like an avant grade approach rather than a comfortable fit. On the other hand, I feel that jazz would be a perfect fit if imposed on, say, Fritz Lang's Metropolis. It's an old silent movie that has lots of German Experssionist techniques used to convey gothic narratives, but the story is set in a 1927's view of a not-to-distant future in which jazz was still the newest form of musical expression; It's totally perfect.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Aug 27, 2015 11:30:21 GMT -6
While I've been bothered myself with completely out of place jazz music in games (Marvel vs Capcom 2...I mean...what the hell?), I will say that what's present in past Castlevania games doesn't bother me. The games do have a gothic and horror-inspired setting, definitely, but the feel of the adventure overall has always been a certain charm, fun and lightheartedness in atmosphere. The material the games are inspired from are much darker than the games themselves. I think this is a conscious design choice on Iga's part, and can be inferred in this game as well from how he seems to be following suit by wanting Miriam to get around with an energetic jog and still having Yamane interject a catchy melody into the stage themes. Grabbing hearts and money from candles, finding food and items stuffed in random places...there are notable touches of just silly fun, game-y things. The game isn't really all that serious, and I like it more for that. Wandering Ghosts from SotN could at first be taken as out of context, and some may feel that it is still, but that song is just great. I generally don't listen to this kind of music, but the haunted rhythm of it along with the shuffling, almost...jiving (lol) skeletons is just great and uniquely Castlevania. A lot of things can be gothic, dark/scary and they can do it well, but nothing else can pull things like this off. All that said, I want as many electric guitars as possible.
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Post by qaantar on Aug 27, 2015 15:16:02 GMT -6
Really great discussion, I found it very interesting!
Have the video game music composers ever discussed the direction they were given when composing music (e.g., the mood to evoke)?
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Post by aindriu on Aug 27, 2015 23:26:13 GMT -6
*snugles Aindriu contentedly* It's what I do Thank you for being nice as well! But anyways, to make sure I understand your position: You contend that being gothic specifically (as opposed to just general horror) means you have to combine the romanticism present in 18th to 19th century literature *along with* dread, supernatural stuff, ominous happenings, etc. present in horror fiction. As you say, the best way to do this would be to use 18th and 19th century style music as well (specifically Baroque, Classical, and maybe Opera), but then you also say that a more contemporary for that's also suitable for this purpose is Metal. You also say that Jazz is less relatable to the 18th/19th century time periods we're looking at, which is understandable, since Bloodstained also takes place in the 19th century (I think--Industrial Revolution-era Europe, right?). However, I still question whether that makes it less appropriate than Metal for use in Bloodstained. You say "one genre that is inherently ominous is metal," but I'm not sure I agree. I can think of several metal songs which are inspiring, uplifting, or even romantic (in terms of love, not Romanticism) rather than ominous. For instance, Judas Priests's "Another Thing Comin'," which seems like the sort of thing to pump you up and excite you rather than scare you. You also say Metal is considered the "devil's music," but IIRC one of the reasons for that is that it uses the tritone, which (according to Wikipedia) was referred to as "diabolis in musica" or something similar, according to Wikipedia at least. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on either point, but why wouldn't one be able to make a Jazz tune with the 'diabolic' tritone or an ominous minor chord? You're right to say that Metal owes a lot compositionally to Classical, but so does Jazz--IIRC, Ken Burns went so far as to call Duke Ellington "America's Mozart" in his documentary on the artform! So I'm not sure Jazz is much less Classical than Metal is. Anyways, have a good sleep, we'll all be here when you wake up After all this, I must give my concession. I got drunk earlier tonight and played (and beat) Super Castlevania IV. There are more than one jazzier tunes, and even so, there isn't a single song I had a problem with. I guess it just depends on the composition.
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Post by ghaleon on Aug 28, 2015 19:36:27 GMT -6
I'll just say I don't like Jazz music, and don't recall ever liking a Jazz track in a game, castlevania or otherwise. Though I don't recall any castlevania game having a jazz track that really bothered me and make me go 'OH GOD TURN IT OFF" like some game's songs do.
That said I like the Bloodstained theme. as soon as I heard it I was like "yup, that's castlevania"... Cursed orphan on the other hand. To be honest I'm not that enamored with it. It's too noisy and obnoxious for my tastes, and I have a hard time imagining it in actual gameplay without it drowning out the regular sound effects...They will probably filter it or something to not be that way, who knows if my opinion will be the same then.
I wont vote because I love the first track, and the 2nd track is kinda less than meh but not quite hate
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Post by aindriu on Sept 1, 2015 21:54:41 GMT -6
I'll just say I don't like Jazz music, and don't recall ever liking a Jazz track in a game, castlevania or otherwise. Though I don't recall any castlevania game having a jazz track that really bothered me and make me go 'OH GOD TURN IT OFF" like some game's songs do. That said I like the Bloodstained theme. as soon as I heard it I was like "yup, that's castlevania"... Cursed orphan on the other hand. To be honest I'm not that enamored with it. It's too noisy and obnoxious for my tastes, and I have a hard time imagining it in actual gameplay without it drowning out the regular sound effects...They will probably filter it or something to not be that way, who knows if my opinion will be the same then. I wont vote because I love the first track, and the 2nd track is kinda less than meh but not quite hate What about, say, this one?
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Post by ghaleon on Sept 1, 2015 23:11:42 GMT -6
what about it? Does it make me go "oh god turn it off?!" Well I'm not playing the game atm so it's hard to say, but I certainly have no desire to listen to it on its own again =P
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Post by Lelygax on Sept 2, 2015 17:52:05 GMT -6
I'll just say I don't like Jazz music, and don't recall ever liking a Jazz track in a game, castlevania or otherwise. Though I don't recall any castlevania game having a jazz track that really bothered me and make me go 'OH GOD TURN IT OFF" like some game's songs do. That said I like the Bloodstained theme. as soon as I heard it I was like "yup, that's castlevania"... Cursed orphan on the other hand. To be honest I'm not that enamored with it. It's too noisy and obnoxious for my tastes, and I have a hard time imagining it in actual gameplay without it drowning out the regular sound effects...They will probably filter it or something to not be that way, who knows if my opinion will be the same then. I wont vote because I love the first track, and the 2nd track is kinda less than meh but not quite hate What about, say, this one? I like the HoD feel in this music.
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Post by Nomak on Sept 2, 2015 20:07:49 GMT -6
Anything remotely similar to this master piece.
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Post by aindriu on Sept 2, 2015 23:15:09 GMT -6
what about it? Does it make me go "oh god turn it off?!" Well I'm not playing the game atm so it's hard to say, but I certainly have no desire to listen to it on its own again =P Fair Enough.
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