inherit
447
0
Jun 11, 2024 9:28:29 GMT -6
182
DSLevantine
224
Jul 25, 2015 11:16:27 GMT -6
July 2015
dslevantine
|
Post by DSLevantine on Aug 8, 2019 20:18:20 GMT -6
And meanwhile I make a thread on the fun side of things about ideas for the cosmetics items and get zero replies. It's mostly complaint/reactionary stuff around here lately and it bothers me more than it should. It's just that most who would otherwise engage positively are playing the game or have moved on to their next game. I think that this is actually the natural progression of how things like this go, but I miss the excitement and discussion of what was to be. The dev created the unrest, they have themselves to blame. Right now I can't convince myself to keep on supporting Bloodstained.
|
|
purifyweirdshard
Administrator
Administrator
Calling from Heaven
Posts: 3,789
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
inherit
Administrator
210
0
1
Oct 25, 2024 0:03:05 GMT -6
3,660
purifyweirdshard
Calling from Heaven
3,789
Jun 29, 2015 7:24:38 GMT -6
June 2015
purifyweirdsoul
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
|
Post by purifyweirdshard on Aug 8, 2019 23:37:18 GMT -6
And meanwhile I make a thread on the fun side of things about ideas for the cosmetics items and get zero replies. It's mostly complaint/reactionary stuff around here lately and it bothers me more than it should. It's just that most who would otherwise engage positively are playing the game or have moved on to their next game. I think that this is actually the natural progression of how things like this go, but I miss the excitement and discussion of what was to be. Well the reason for that would be that lately the news haven't been all that great, have they? Most of what was communicated in updates and patches has been controversial with half the fandom being against it. I think the difference is, I don't think that's true. I think lately the news has been fine, good actually - we're sitting on both a successful Kickstarter and successful (and good) game. It's an ideal scenario with a few lingering problems, and the half of the fandom being against things going on is I believe a great overestimation. Half of the forum wouldn't be accurate, either - just a certain number of the people who are here because they want to be around to talk about it. It's the same as with the Kickstarter comments - the perceived atmosphere is that "everyone" is against or mad about something, but more accurately it's the same handful of people posting back to back about it. This is probably callous of me to point out, but it's just been going on here enough that it seems to mirror that KS comments atmosphere in some ways and I don't stomach that very well. If fans here love the game like they say they do, I'm not feeling it. I kind of just want to fade to the background and moderate as necessary while everyone is in a flavor of the month tizzy. It feels like it's always something, until it turns out to be nothing/not a big deal, ad nauseam. The thing is, that's just how I subjectively take it all, so I guess I should step back and watch.
|
|
inherit
3692
0
Aug 10, 2019 23:21:50 GMT -6
11
findleman
4
Aug 5, 2019 13:59:44 GMT -6
August 2019
findleman
|
Post by findleman on Aug 9, 2019 14:41:06 GMT -6
In sum, the game really isn't particularly easy (or any easier than other games in the genre played on normal mode), and the skills they've targeted are odd, as I consider them average skills, by far not the strongest. However, I've acknowledged there is some merit to what Purifyweirdshard mentioned, which is that the goal is simply to encourage experimentation. I think it's a somewhat futile goal, as casual gamers are always going to default to "easy and convenient" skills, but certainly I can appreciate the argument. I don't believe it is as futile as you make it out to be. You mentioned not using them due to them clashing with your playstyle, and they clash with mine too, to the extent that the statistical advantage granted isn't enough to outweigh the effort needed in the shift (in my case, I won't presume yours). However, while casual gamers, and all players to an extent, gravitate to the "easy and convenient" skills, those criteria shift from player to player even if they aren't consciously aware of them. I've always played my games more slowly/cautiously than most and I have a friend that can be charitably described as a "24/7 Leeroy Jenkins" when he plays games. Our definitions of easy and convenient differ and there's nothing wrong with that. Problems arise when convenience in raw power outweighs all other criteria which results in a large majority of players playing the exact same way, using the exact same tools, regardless of their preferences. This is a problem more pronounced in multiplayer games because it quickly becomes obvious due to constant player-t0-player interaction, but it still exists in certain single-player games, like Bloodstained, and one deserving of attention because these "gravitating builds/tools" will usually result in less engaging/entertaining experience for those who would have otherwise have chosen a different playstyle. You could argue that nerfs to the gravitating tools come at the cost of the enjoyment of those who are naturally drawn towards them and you'd be right. It's a balancing act that ultimately depends on what the developer wants out of their game and there is no right answer, just a giant spectrum of possibilities. This turned out longer than I expected but when I read that I just had to get this down. You say it's a problem that "majority of players playing the exact same way, using the exact same tools, regardless of their preferences"... but you forget we are required to solve all puzzles the same way, and use the same available gear. Why is a developing meta of a few good/slightly stronger items wrong, when there are other options to use at the players choice? If players want to use more items they will, and if they are comfortable using an item they aren't going to switch unless they have a reason. If they don't like something personally they won't use it or will find other ways to play around it. (ex: i really dislike the dullahead, and play with bloodthirster/silverknight, refusing to use the fairy)
|
|
Seta
New Blood
Xbox One User
Posts: 77
inherit
3695
0
Aug 6, 2019 18:32:42 GMT -6
56
Seta
Xbox One User
77
Aug 5, 2019 22:57:58 GMT -6
August 2019
seta
|
Post by Seta on Aug 9, 2019 15:37:06 GMT -6
Apathy or willpower, either way point still stands that options are choices. People don't have to choose instant gratification Agreed, the illusion of feeling really powerful becomes meaningless unless enemies don't also seem powerful. Players don't need to be challenged for this though, just feel so Couple problems with this example. Welcome company along with any of the other things that got nerfed weren't on the level of Hellhound, the second thing is players wouldn't feel powerful so much a they would feel enemies were just pathetic in that scenario. The thrill of feeling powerful comes from the players feeling like they can vanquish threats with ease 10 hp monsters probably wouldn't feel very threatening even if the player wasn't OP Tough but fair can sell, especially if the game is well balanced and fun. However it's never going to be on the same level of a well made game geared towards casuals. Sure Dark Souls sold over a million but that not very impressive compared to the best selling games of all time, it doesn't even come close Many games that started out with a reputation for being tough have become much easier in later installments. Far Cry 2 players had to deal with Malaria and weapons jamming. Far Cry 5 on the other hand players are perfectly healthy and gun jam "feature" was removed. Not just that but now players have perks and melee sneak attack takedowns. i wanted to elaborate more on this, you mentioned you never used Welcome Company so let me compare it to things in Symphony of the Night for you Welcome Company isn't anywhere near as good as Summon Hellhound except in MP cost, Welcome Company isn't even as good as Soul Steal from Symphony of the Night. That's in terms of defense and offense even without factoring Soul Steal heals and grants i-frames. The DPS and range of Soul Steal>Welcome Company Both can be received really early and both are really good for when you receive them but far from being among the best. People talk like the stuff that got nerfed is on par with Shield Rod+Alucard Shield but honestly it's not even on par with Shield Rod+iron Shield. Heck Rhava Velar pre nerfs wasn't even close to being on the level of Crissagram 36 attack power and Rhava Velar is an endgame item that requires you to beat a special optional boss Rhava Velar isn't my kind of weapon so i don't care as much but honestly Welcome Company isn't that great even before this nerf. The one thing Welcome Company has over Soul Steal is MP efficiency. Considering players could just recast anytime they lose a portrait or enter a new screen makes the cost almost non existent. There is a cost though as being in a conjure spot it takes away a ranged option leaving players with just the directional shard for that. Given a choice i'd gladly give up Welcome Company for Soul Steal on Miriam though. Offensively and Defensively with i-frames and healing but with an actual MP cost, sign me up. Many players also still died while Welcome Company was active The nerf isn't out on Xbox yet, but you are probably playing on Playstation. Please do me a favor though if the nerf hasn't hit you yet please try it out for yourself and tell me whether you think i was incorrect in my assessment of the shard, after doing so you might question why it's going to be nerfed in the first place Edit: Here's what 9/9Welcome Company looks like endgame with a level 99 character with all the food bonuses Killed the same monster twice with base attacks without Welcome Company and then once with Welcome Company so you could see the DPS before weapon interference. As you can see i took damage even though Welcome Company was active and lost multiple portraits from a single enemy
|
|
lai
Loyal Familiar
Professional lurker and OOE expert
Posts: 107
inherit
743
0
Jun 13, 2024 14:49:17 GMT -6
86
lai
Professional lurker and OOE expert
107
Sept 7, 2015 18:56:30 GMT -6
September 2015
lai
|
Post by lai on Aug 9, 2019 17:00:24 GMT -6
This is going to be my last post on this thread because I have better things to spend my time on. Couple problems with this example. Welcome company along with any of the other things that got nerfed weren't on the level of Hellhound, the second thing is players wouldn't feel powerful so much a they would feel enemies were just pathetic in that scenario. The thrill of feeling powerful comes from the players feeling like they can vanquish threats with ease 10 hp monsters probably wouldn't feel very threatening even if the player wasn't OP The 9/9 hellhound thing has nothing to do with Bloodstained outside of being a point of reference for us both to understand and a bit of hyperbole. I could've replaced it with "perma shield rod alucard shield combo", raised the hp number, and my point would remain the same. It was used to compare your claim that games sell well because it gives the of feeling OP which disregards things like marketing, legacy, and genre which can be argued to have a much bigger impact on a game's sales aka the thing I actually wrote about in that post. SOTN sold over a million but that is not very impressive compared to the best selling games of all time, it doesn't even come close. Anyway, sequels getting easier than their previous installments has been a thing since difficulty padding was phased out of popular design in order to keep the newer entries accessible to newcomers, this doesn't just apply to top sellers, but countless smaller series. But it does not always result in higher sales just look at Dead Space or the portable Castlevanias (Circle of the Moon outsold Aria of Sorrow despite being the harder game). You've elaborated and lost me bit. Soul Steal and WC are different tools in different games, you're comparing apples to oranges here. Yes Bloodstained follows a lot of the same design philosophy as SOTN, but there's 2 decades of evolution between them and in those two decades lots of things have changed. Mechanics have changed, enemy design. WC serves as damage and protection from Dullahammer Heads and is an equip-able. Soul Steal appears to be designed as a room clearer from its inception and can be used whenever you want as long as you know the input and have the mp. The balance of power and context of their use are completely different. Also in a game like this you can die at any point, WC being active does not change that, people can die with Directed Shield out. If you've read the post I linked in my first post on this thread then you should already know I think the Velar nerf was unwarranted so I'll just say I agree with you there. Also I play on PC, yes I did use it a bit before the nerfs for testing purposes, and yes I still believe it warranted a nerf albeit not one as extreme as we got. Ok? And? You took damage because you mis-spaced, that's hardly the shard's fault and I don't see what losing portraits have to do with anything outside of the shards mechanics. What if I have a video of me using the nerfed WC but I go through an entire corridor without getting hit? What does that prove? Absolutely nothing. You can make anything look bad or good with enough effort. Besides the issue I have with WC is not in the endgame, but with the early-midgame when you get it and where it over-centralizes playthroughs for casual players. _____________________________________________ Yes we are required to solve all puzzles with the same gear and in the same manner except these are only at very specific points in the game, you do not need to use the puzzle solving tools outside of it. Using the same gear for a few minutes for a few puzzles or roadblocks is not the same as spending 75% or more of your time playing using with the exact same loadout. I do not believe that a meta of a few slightly stronger weapons is wrong and I never stated otherwise. In the context of casual play, the problem arises when the meta gear unconsciously overrides the player's choice and effectively railroads them into using them. They won't be finding a way around it because to a casual player the way around it potentially results in a game too hard for them to beat as they are used to the style the tool demands and the crutch it provides. If the player had been using the style they preferred the difficulty would be fine, but since they were forced into the meta style they don't have the time or chance to switch, and I highly doubt most casual players will invest the time to learn two different playstyles. Please read my post more carefully as I have already addressed these points.
|
|
Seta
New Blood
Xbox One User
Posts: 77
inherit
3695
0
Aug 6, 2019 18:32:42 GMT -6
56
Seta
Xbox One User
77
Aug 5, 2019 22:57:58 GMT -6
August 2019
seta
|
Post by Seta on Aug 9, 2019 22:05:47 GMT -6
Now just because marketing and genre have a lot to do with sales doesn't mean feeling OP in the game doesn't help out as well The way a game makes players feel usually effects word of mouth and reviews which in turn effects legacy for example "Playing the game makes me feel... therefore i should assume future installments will also give me a similar feeling as well as other games in the genre possibly" Which is why i put it in the second list and not there first. Look back at the original post, they are two separate list one on sales and the other on popularity. You mentioned Dark Souls sales so i assume you wanted to compare sales but if we are going to popularity route sure Dark Souls has a following but despite having a legacy of previous installments it's not exactly one of the games known as being the face of ARPG games unlike how the majority of MetroidVania fans know the name Symphony of the Night. The ARPG equivalent in terms of popularity would probably be something like Kingdom Hearts or Diablo As in geared towards casuals, priority over the hungry for a challenge crowd Well there are other factors involved but that doesn't mean how a game makes players feel isn't a big one. Multiple factors doesn't mean the original statement isn't true for example if i say "going out in a storm is dangerous because of visibility" and someone else says well going out in a storm is dangerous because "high winds and/or the roads being more slippery" it doesn't mean the original statement i originally made also isn't true and/or a large factor Well the point is that the shard doesn't make the player invincible, some of the people who made complaints about it acted like it did. Never said that it was the shards fault Only showing it doesn't make the player invincible and getting in close to damage with it is risk versus reward rather than just taking advantage of a ranged option Just showing the shard isn't that great, especially if a single enemy can knock out that many portraits The video is about showing that while the shard is good it's still not great even at 9/9 with a maxed out character i think a person would probably have trouble making Shield Rod+Alucard Shield combo looking bad The reason being is that they are probably having fun with it, a shard being fun doesn't justify a nerf in my opinion Not going to deny that Welcome Company isn't a great option early on but not more so than Soul Steal is in Symphony of the Night Early good/great options are fun, if people are spamming it a lot that means it's doing its job right? The fact that it's also not great endgame shows many players still feel there's just better options later on
|
|
kard
New Blood
Posts: 8
inherit
3712
0
Nov 27, 2019 13:49:56 GMT -6
6
kard
8
Aug 18, 2019 1:56:25 GMT -6
August 2019
kard
|
Post by kard on Aug 18, 2019 2:05:35 GMT -6
Why does it have to be one or the other can't we just get rid of nerfs?
|
|
inherit
447
0
Jun 11, 2024 9:28:29 GMT -6
182
DSLevantine
224
Jul 25, 2015 11:16:27 GMT -6
July 2015
dslevantine
|
Post by DSLevantine on Aug 20, 2019 6:10:42 GMT -6
Why does it have to be one or the other can't we just get rid of nerfs? yea, just get rid of the nerf
|
|
Seta
New Blood
Xbox One User
Posts: 77
inherit
3695
0
Aug 6, 2019 18:32:42 GMT -6
56
Seta
Xbox One User
77
Aug 5, 2019 22:57:58 GMT -6
August 2019
seta
|
Post by Seta on Sept 4, 2019 16:41:34 GMT -6
Why does it have to be one or the other can't we just get rid of nerfs? Well the thing is nerfs happen when people complain about being OP rather than having the self control to just use something else The key word to focus on is options, Overpowered Options
i would be quite happy if they got rid of the nerfs but don't think it's going to happen however that doesn't mean we can't complain
|
|