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Post by browren on Mar 11, 2019 19:40:35 GMT -6
What would you wager the amount 505 spent getting Nintendo to advertise their game for them was, relative to the amount it would have cost to refund Mac and Linux backers? 20 times? 50 maybe? 200 times? More?
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Post by hyugakojiro on Mar 11, 2019 19:42:55 GMT -6
I figured you were going to make this point and from your perspective you have every right to make it. However even if Angel or Question could and did comment here about the exact nature of the deal would you take them at their word if the information they provided us with ran counter to your suspicions?
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Post by Galamoth on Mar 11, 2019 19:48:49 GMT -6
Yeah, Nintendo featuring Bloodstained in their Direct could only mean good things for both.
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Post by browren on Mar 11, 2019 19:52:24 GMT -6
If the price was equal or even close? Sure. If 505 had an actual poverty situation it would have been stupid NOT to trade off platforms to advertise where the money is. The price isn't even remotely close to equal, though, and the amount it would have cost to refund us wouldn't have covered even two seconds of just the bandwidth costs for Nintendo Direct's video feed, let alone convincing Nintendo to feature Bloodstained instead of some larger publisher's summer release.
Advertising isn't free and Nintendo ain't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. The game's going to do well on Switch and everywhere else, too, but it rings really, really, really hollow compared to the claims that they can't afford to do what was promised and HAVE to trade off.
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Post by gunlord500 on Mar 11, 2019 19:53:13 GMT -6
What would you wager the amount 505 spent getting Nintendo to advertise their game for them was, relative to the amount it would have cost to refund Mac and Linux backers? 20 times? 50 maybe? 200 times? More? Honestly, it could be half or less. I'm not just saying this to be flippant, I mean from my understanding, Nintendo Direct isn't something you really "pay for." According to Wikipedia:
The way its phrased leads me to believe that Nintendo is responsible for choosing which products get featured, contacting the parties, and then featuring whatever publicity the party wants to show on the Direct presentation. I get the feeling it's an offer Nintendo extends to developers they think have something impressive or appealing to show, not something the developer pays for. But again, Angel or Question would know better than I.
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Post by akuwa on Mar 11, 2019 21:43:58 GMT -6
gunlord500 I always thought it was free to have your game featured on Nintendo Directs so my instincts say your right about that, however making trailers, especially two different trailers such as in that case there's just no way that was free, trailers take a whole lot of work to create and I've seen the cost of creating trailers be the reason a lot of indi devs don't put trailers on their product page of the Eshop meaning their not cheap to make, so even if paying to be featured on the Nintendo Direct isn't a thing browren may have a point
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Post by gunlord500 on Mar 11, 2019 21:47:50 GMT -6
gunlord500 I always thought it was free to have your game featured on Nintendo Directs so my instincts say your right about that, however making trailers, especially two different trailers such as in that case there's just no way that was free, trailers take a whole lot of work to create and I've seen the cost of creating trailers be the reason a lot of indi devs don't put trailers on their product page of the Eshop meaning their not cheap to make, so even if paying to be featured on the Nintendo Direct isn't a thing browren may have a point Sure, but marketing costs are always factored into development costs as well; a game like Bloodstained was certainly going to have a trailer and IGA would have set aside money for it long before Mac and Linux was canceled. The only question was whether or not the trailer would be better than the infamous Mighty No. 9 one, and let's be thankful it was! You could argue they should have dumped the trailer the trailer to put money into Mac and Linux, but considering the money they stood to lose in terms of lost sales if they didn't get the word out (which would render them even less able to do anything for Mac and Linux backers down the line), that doesn't make budgetary sense.
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Post by Enkeria on Mar 12, 2019 1:51:10 GMT -6
gunlord500 I always thought it was free to have your game featured on Nintendo Directs so my instincts say your right about that, however making trailers, especially two different trailers such as in that case there's just no way that was free, trailers take a whole lot of work to create and I've seen the cost of creating trailers be the reason a lot of indi devs don't put trailers on their product page of the Eshop meaning their not cheap to make, so even if paying to be featured on the Nintendo Direct isn't a thing browren may have a point Sure, but marketing costs are always factored into development costs as well; a game like Bloodstained was certainly going to have a trailer and IGA would have set aside money for it long before Mac and Linux was canceled. The only question was whether or not the trailer would be better than the infamous Mighty No. 9 one, and let's be thankful it was! You could argue they should have dumped the trailer the trailer to put money into Mac and Linux, but considering the money they stood to lose in terms of lost sales if they didn't get the word out (which would render them even less able to do anything for Mac and Linux backers down the line), that doesn't make budgetary sense. Making a trailer can't be that expensive, can it? Been doing those kind of projects many times and it has always cost my "customers" $0. Though I have stopped now because it's heavily time-consuming, making a trailer should be very cheap or free. Maybe I am just one of those guys who make stuff for free because I support visions and projects. If that's the case, I suggest more people do the same.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Mar 12, 2019 1:51:19 GMT -6
The refund argument and Nintendo Direct presentation goes way off topic for this thread.
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Post by Aztec on Mar 12, 2019 2:09:44 GMT -6
gunlord500 I always thought it was free to have your game featured on Nintendo Directs so my instincts say your right about that, however making trailers, especially two different trailers such as in that case there's just no way that was free, trailers take a whole lot of work to create and I've seen the cost of creating trailers be the reason a lot of indi devs don't put trailers on their product page of the Eshop meaning their not cheap to make, so even if paying to be featured on the Nintendo Direct isn't a thing browren may have a point He still doesn’t have a point. Even if editing a trailer did cost them extra there’s no way it cost anything close to the time, manpower, and money it takes to develop two additional ports, especially when said ports are for the least popular platforms by far. Bloodstained always had money set aside for marketing. You do not skip on that unless you want to self sabotage your own game and risk bombing with general audiences. This game can not sustain a franchise by catering only to the 60,000 Kickstarter backers. They probably could take money from their marketing budget to fund these two ports for a tiny audience but it just doesn’t make any business sense whatsoever. Their mistake was promising Mac and Linux ports but sometimes you just need to cut your losses and know when to quit.
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Post by gunlord500 on Mar 12, 2019 5:13:06 GMT -6
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Post by browren on Mar 12, 2019 7:21:53 GMT -6
The refund argument and Nintendo Direct presentation goes way off topic for this thread. No it does not - the very first thing they asked was "Hi everyone, IGA here. How was the trailer?"
The trailer was focused on a single platform that wasn't even part of the Kickstarter, and getting on Nintendo Direct most likely cost 505 several times the money it would have cost to refund cancelled platforms that were part of the Kickstarter.
It is absolutely on topic and should be an obvious question to ask: how did 505 get on Nintendo Direct? Why weren't other platforms given a similar treatment? How can 505 simultaneously pay for this big fat Nintendo-centric advertising campaign and also not have enough money to finish what was promised when they started? How come other consoles didn't get equal exposure - where's the XBox and PS4 trailers?
Maybe it's not relevant to your interests, but that doesn't make it off topic. I'm sure EVERYTHING is nice and rosy over in Switch-land.
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Post by Galamoth on Mar 12, 2019 8:14:22 GMT -6
Speaking of 's new look, I wonder if the form she takes during her desperation move [from CotM] will show up. Makes me think there just might be a 2nd fight. I could be wrong.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Mar 12, 2019 8:31:59 GMT -6
The beginning of the update does discuss the Nintendo Direct trailer etc, so that is on topic, yes. The Linux/Mac issue is the context it's being discussed in (costs and publisher motivation), so that's fine. If we wanted to get into the actual particulars of the Linux/Mac issue though, yeah that would belong in more appropriate areas.
re: Bloodless, yeah I could certainly see her having multiple forms since Carmilla usually does. Instead of riding on a skull, she may herself be the "severed head" we fight as a true form. The 2017 playable shows her giving up her shard without transforming, but that could have been changed or a re-fight is possible?
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Post by Nezuto on Mar 12, 2019 11:00:58 GMT -6
The refund argument and Nintendo Direct presentation goes way off topic for this thread. No it does not - the very first thing they asked was "Hi everyone, IGA here. How was the trailer?"
The trailer was focused on a single platform that wasn't even part of the Kickstarter, and getting on Nintendo Direct most likely cost 505 several times the money it would have cost to refund cancelled platforms that were part of the Kickstarter.
It is absolutely on topic and should be an obvious question to ask: how did 505 get on Nintendo Direct? Why weren't other platforms given a similar treatment? How can 505 simultaneously pay for this big fat Nintendo-centric advertising campaign and also not have enough money to finish what was promised when they started? How come other consoles didn't get equal exposure - where's the XBox and PS4 trailers?
Maybe it's not relevant to your interests, but that doesn't make it off topic. I'm sure EVERYTHING is nice and rosy over in Switch-land.
Again, 505 wasn't attached to the frigging project back in KS, if you're a backer as you claim, you'd know that. And Pure Miriam is correct, this thread has derailed when the original topic was the UPDATE, not just purely a trailer or Linux/Mac woes. At this point, after reading many current and past posts, you're right to be upset with things turning the way they have, if that's your prerogative, but you have also been seeming like you're trying to get a rise from other users and I won't stay silent on that anymore. In the past, you've been rude to purifyweirdshard , XombieMike , Pure Miriam , gunlord500 , hyugakojiro and others. Despite an understanding and fair conversations that've been pointed out to you. No one has downplayed your feelings on it, except maybe Aztec , recently, but I can also see that's namely due to your behaviour as of late. Lay off the vitriol in your statements and maybe others would be more willing to listen to what you have to say. Keep talking like your average League of Legends player and people will keep calling you out on the way you act. If anyone thinks I'm out of line stating this, let me know and I'll delete this post, but until then, I am calling this behaviour out as it's not needed to be THIS negative about things, especially this anti-Nintendo propaganda. We get it, you think Ninty is shady as all hell. As Tim once said, 'Get on with it.'
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Post by browren on Mar 12, 2019 11:38:28 GMT -6
Again, 505 wasn't attached to the frigging project back in KS, if you're a backer as you claim, you'd know that. Order KICKBLOODSTAINED-#9E679F This is an automated email sent to you to confirm your pledge: Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night You will be notified later of any surveys regarding redemption to this email. Feel free to verify it with Fangamer if you like. I am well aware that 505 came into the project late and took it over, and they are well aware that they're responsible for what they took over, including all of the initial promises that were made. Showing up late to the game doesn't excuse them. You mean the UPDATE that was given to Nintendo first, through their first party advertising channel Nintendo Direct, before backers got the update? That sounds directly relevant to me! But do continue making this about me rather than 505's clearly Nintendo-centric advertising push. Sorry that the whole thread isn't people singing the praises of the oh-so-mighty Switch. Any of the admins are more than capable of dealing directly with any issues they have with how I am participating on this board. Did you miss the post deletions? I'm sorry my having been ripped off by 505 is ruining your Nintendo lovefest here, but to me it looks like 505 sold out to Nintendo and threw us under the bus. It's relevant. What's shady is 505 cutting deals with Nintendo for advertising (an inarguably true fact, they would not be on Nintendo Direct without SOME agreement!) likely at the expense of people who were cheated out of their rewards, and potentially at the cost of dragging the whole game down to the Switch's 2014-level hardware requirements. Did it occur to you that the "middleware" issue they encountered might actually be some proprietary software Nintendo's online play requires? I suspect you don't care though. You probably couldn't care less if the PC version is no better than a Switch port now, thanks to the publisher - not the devs.
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Post by Nezuto on Mar 12, 2019 12:03:05 GMT -6
I've not been thrilled with 505, either. From the so called 'beta' to the cancellations, to the fact that for some time, they never spoke of or responded to many questions in regards to misgivings on the game due to all of that. So you're not affecting things for me 'I'm sorry my having been ripped off by 505 is ruining your Nintendo lovefest here, but to me it looks like 505 sold out to Nintendo and threw us under the bus. It's relevant.' It's been pointed out that Nintendo is doing their own thing in regards to the advertising for the Switch version and I never said I was in favor or against, so do NOT put words in my mouth of being in a 'Nintendo lovefest' when I'm not defending their actions. I was pointing out your constant attacks and borderline toxic comments as being detrimental to the discussion of THIS thread and your telling Pure Miriam that they were incorrect in regards to the thread derailment. There are other threads for this discussion and if not, make a new one for it, but don't derail this thread with your issues against 505 and Nintendo as it's NOT relevant to the topic of the thread. And yes, I know about the post deletions, I also know you're the same one I've argued with once or twice over the last year in regards to things and that you're the reason for my recent hiatus from the boards, but that's neither here nor there. I was stating a fact and nothing more. I would also like to reiterate that I'm NOT happy with 505 and nor am I forgiving them or Nintendo for 'anything shady.' That crap shouldn't happen at all, but it does and did and I'm pretty unsure of my feelings towards the game. I'm not exactly 'hyped' given last years crap adding up until the trailer/release date announcement and especially not thrilled with how fast many forgot all that happened all due to a damned trailer. Nintendo having shady deals with 505 is neither here nor there in what I stated prior, either. I simply pointed out that 505 was NOT attached to the KS at all, until Inticreates was kicked to the curb, which was AFTER funding had finished. Whatever publisher shenanigans they're doing is with their own funds, not what backers donated. If found to the contrary, then I will revise that, much like I did back when I defended Inti for the fiasco with CotM, then retracted my statement and was strictly against what they pulled, after more evidence of their wrongdoing came to light. Learn to see more than one side of a story.
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Post by gunlord500 on Mar 12, 2019 12:33:05 GMT -6
Well, Purify's the boss 'round here, if he says the discussion is OK for this thread, I'll go with his decision And for what it's worth, I don't think browren has been especially rude to me, though I have chastised him for namecalling Question and 505. But for the last few posts he hasn't swore or done any of that, so that's good for now...
However, browren, to be blunt, your recent posts seem to be veering into tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory territory. I've said repeatedly I understand your feelings and sympathize with mac/linux backers, but casting these aspersions on Nintendo is--again, bluntly stated--a very bad look. It's insulting to one of the major companies we're working with, and simply silly to entertain on a forum that ought to be known for hosting good and true information rather than wild accusations.
You claim there might be some "proprietary software Nintendo's online play requires." Well then, since you're a software developer, can you give any examples of such proprietary software? This is a genuine quiestion--I'm not a computer science guy, but I have literally never heard of any game developed for the Switch rendered unable to play on mac or linux (or any other system, for that matter) due to any such proprietary software. In the absence of any proof of something like that actually taking place, such a baseless accusation is something I very much ought to challenge.
"Nintendo-centric advertising push?" Well, I'll ping Angel-Corlux and he can tell us how much the Direct might have "cost." I am very certain it was either minimal or nothing, but Angel can confirm for sure. Why do we have a Direct rather than a PS4 presentation or something? Maybe we might in the future, but off the top of my head the only thing these presentations (Nintendo Direct, PS4 presentations, XBOX shows, etc.) general ask for is "exclusivity." So while Bloodstained would get free publicity for its trailer, it had to choose which platform it wanted to be shown on. Since Curse of the Moon was successful on the Switch by the largest margin, the team made an agreement with Nintendo. That's all--no nefarious buyout schemes at all.
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Post by browren on Mar 12, 2019 12:42:33 GMT -6
If the angry words of one ticked-off Linux backer are enough to keep you off the board, I think maybe you're more disillusioned with the game than you realize, and if "how fast many forgot all that happened all due to a damned trailer" makes you mad, we're more alike than you realize.
Fine, though, I'll shut up so you can all go on forgetting about all that publisher nonsense and go back to discussing the totally relevant topic of which version of Spanish the game supports.
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Post by Question on Mar 12, 2019 13:02:21 GMT -6
What would you wager the amount 505 spent getting Nintendo to advertise their game for them was, relative to the amount it would have cost to refund Mac and Linux backers? 20 times? 50 maybe? 200 times? More? The cost of having Bloodstained appear in the recent Nintendo Direct was $0.
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