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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 15, 2019 9:08:46 GMT -6
There's a part of this I've observed that you're leaving out here, what is your solution to identifying the affected backers? They would need to know conclusively: Who was a Linux/Mac backer for Steam, and who was a Linux/Mac backer for GOG. I'll take a shot at this one. The first thing, that browren pointed out, is this is a problem of their own making. At any time leading up to update #76 they could have sent a survey specifying which platform we intended to play on. At that point no one would have known to lie and say differently. In addition, they've proven they can change backer rewards as this was the only solution they offered Mac and Linux backers. Any options they had along this line of reasoning disappeared the moment they made a cash grab. The second thing is, in all lawsuits you must have standing and there must be damages. In this case, they are only liable to Mac Linux backers, period. Even if they have created a bad situation for themselves. The way this is usually done is you sign a digital affidavit that you intended you play on Mac or Linux. I'm not saying this is a catchall solution, but most of society is truthful and it gets you within a percentage maybe 10-20%. The third point I would make is that [they could just port the game] they have offered no real evidence that they actually spent any time trying to actually port the game. If they can port to ps4 (unix-like) and they can port to switch (unix-like) is it really cost prohibitive to port to Mac and Linux (unix-likes). What is this mysterious middleware they chose? UA already had Mac and Linux ports and 505 pulled them due to laziness, so sorry if I sound skeptical. I'll reply to #1-3. #1, I believe this may have been a simple and honest mistake/miscommunication between parties, because there's actually a precedent with something very similar. Some of you may even remember it - when Curse of the Moon was added to surveys for platform choices in mid-2018, GOG was one of those options, however not long after that it came out that Inti Creates was not making a version of the game for that platform as they don't produce games without copy protection - there was not a plan for it. Obviously, at that late stage, it wasn't a matter so much of getting the backers' money for specifically a GOG CotM, just rather something that wasn't specifically communicated between all quite in time. If we are to apply this situation to Linux/Mac though and say they told us perhaps a few weeks/month earlier via KS update announcement "Hello, please lock in your OS choices for PC" with no explanation, that would quite likely increase excitement and be seen as a good sign to all, only to say at the end of December "right, so the reason we had you do that is because we're not making two out of three of those". What happens then is a situation similar to the one we're in already. Many people (because there's a precedent for this too) will claim, honestly and not, that they didn't have time or didn't know this was the reason for the change, didn't see the update at all, or for x/y/z other good/bad reasons missed out. In the case of console backer choices, their previous intention was clear, so even if in those cases they were to miss a refund period we know conclusively they were Wii U/Vita, but in the case of PC OS not. This displaces people again to the same situation you all are in right now, on top of the communication drama that would be caused for the game from its "pick your OS" announcement. And this was not in your post but has been brought up elsewhere, asking that maybe it's a sign of a bigger problem if we're worried about a number of non-Linux/Mac refund requests, and the issue there is more the amount of short-sighted and impatient backers. Given the lack of good news lately since they're being upfront and announcing things like these and holding off on release date/game info until everything can be shown at once, many people out there evidenced by comment areas well before the 27th's update are of the thinking that when presented with seemingly "nothing" in front of them next to their investment, they'll take that investment back, and quite likely regret it at some point later. Their funds haven't "matured" yet, which I believe they will and beyond the investment, but many are fickle and easily spooked. Just how many is an unknown, but for their own good they should probably wait. Too many people out there only care to listen to bad news before a product exists. #2, in -that- scenario, I think and would hope for honesty, but I also doubt the eventual existence of such a lawsuit happening. Maybe it will/does, but sounds like a huge disproportionate amount of money and effort to move on. #3, I can't give any information on that myself of course, but I don't think it'd be wise or that they are bound to release the granular details of that situation. We'd have, at best "Oh, that's all? I can fix that in 2 hours", well downplaying the complexity and nuance of how things (don't) work in programming scenarios as complicated as huge video games. At worst, that very specific information is taken and used more widely against them in some manner where nothing of equal or even close value is gained. More information doesn't change the situation and the port still isn't made. |
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 10:00:28 GMT -6
I made some edits while you were typing, sorry. Anyways we certainly are on the same side. About "why nothing can or should be done" let me make it clear that I do think something should be done. I've never said anything but that. Now yes though I do believe that something "can't be done" if that something is limited to a refund. I'm open for ideas on other things that might be possible.
absorbnix is saying that, if 505 were operating in good faith, they'd go into more detail than "middleware issues" (as the Kickstarter ToS requires) and wouldn't brush the following options under the rug:
- "We're sorry, but the Linux and Mac ports will be delayed until after launch, as we'll need money from post-launch sales to complete them."
- "We're sorry, but we've decided to cancel the Linux and Mac ports. In order to ensure that the project still completes successfully, we have to delay offering refunds until we can pay them out of post-release sales."
EDIT: Oops. Didn't notice that extra page of discussion. I'm still getting used to this forum software.
Typing on phone so please forgive the quote chain. Just wanted to point out that you and I see the same thing, but understand it differently. "if 505 were operating in good faith, they'd go into more detail than "middleware issues" 505 is certainly are lacking in the regards of giving us a lot of information. To me, the biggest gap of communication is saying if the popular theory is true or not. This doesn't bother me to the Pont of thinking they are an evil corporation though. I understand that if they choose to not answer something in specific like that it's either because they can't due to someone else's involvement or they have a larger picture of things than we do. I don't want to make excuses for them though. This is just what I think is most likely. Of course, that's the gap I'm most curious about. The gap you brought up is why they aren't specific to what problems prevented them from Linux, and how much work had been done before now to ensure native support. Do I have that much correct? If so, the same thing applies to both our gaps. They may have reasons we can't understand because they have a 10,000 foot view of the whole project. Or they have answers that would throw someone under the bus or something, and professionally it would be rude to point out and cause more problems. Or they simply ran into middle ware issues and can't expand on it. Or they realize that no matter what answer they give it won't change anything, and will only drag them deeper into a conversation that can only get worse. I have no idea. The difference between you and I is that you seem to demand more information and I'm fine with dealing with what has been given. Yours is a completely understandable position! I don't want to say it's wrong or anything! I believe 505 is acting in good faith; you deserve a refund, a refund is impossible, the decision had to be and was made to drop native support. I wish my efforts to bring understanding to the situation to Linux and Mac backers were more sucessful and we'll recieved. I feel like they are mostly futile. In the end, it doesn't change the outcome, but I was hoping I could keep you in the community as fans who look forward to playing the game in some other way. Edit: I should also add that post launch refunds are just as impossible then as they are now for the reasons I've said many times now. |
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Post by absorbnix on Jan 15, 2019 11:20:15 GMT -6
What happens then is a situation similar to the one we're in already. Many people (because there's a precedent for this too) will claim, honestly and not, that they didn't have time or didn't know this was the reason for the change, didn't see the update at all, or for x/y/z other good/bad reasons missed out. In the case of console backer choices, their previous intention was clear, so even if in those cases they were to miss a refund period we know conclusively they were Wii U/Vita, but in the case of PC OS not. This displaces people again to the same situation you all are in right now, on top of the communication drama that would be caused for the game from its "pick your OS" announcement. If Artplay/505 had made a good faith effort to inform customers, reduced the number of people affected by their decision, and make people whole, their ethical and legal position would be in a much different place than it is right now. Any potential lawsuit is going to start by asking this exact question.
in -that- scenario, I think and would hope for honesty, but I also doubt the eventual existence of such a lawsuit happening. Maybe it will/does, but sounds like a huge disproportionate amount of money and effort to move on. This is how they should resolve the situation right now, on their own. It's the right thing to do, and it's how they are going to end up solving it anyway, whether or not you think the "effort is disproportional". I can't speak for Mac and they've yet to speak out for themselves, but us over on the Linux side are hobbyists and enthusiasts. We are used to having to put in extra effort. I also don't find it surprising that after all is said and done your best defense is "even if you're right, good luck collecting". More information doesn't change the situation and the port still isn't made. Agreed, the port isn't made, hence why they need to offer refunds. Their decision to make.
The difference between you and I is that you seem to demand more information and I'm fine with dealing with what has been given. Yours is a completely understandable position! I don't want to say it's wrong or anything! I would say the real difference between you and us is that you are actually getting the game you paid for (if you even backed) while our money was taken from us and promises were broken.
Edit: I should also add that post launch refunds are just as impossible then as they are now for the reasons I've said many times now. Much is being said about what is an isn't possible in regards to refunds. Artplay/505's entire argument, and by extension that of their defenders, is that if they were to meet their commitment to Mac and Linux backers the game itself can not be released. Either cheat the Mac and Linux backers, or cancel the game. This is called a false dichotomy. Third, fourth, fifth, options have been offered. That Artplay/505 doesn't like any of them doesn't erase their accountability. Your arguments are still various ways of excusing illegitimate business practices. If anything, by refusing to address this situation in an responsible manner it may will end up fulfilling the exact scenario you are most afraid of. |
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Post by illasera on Jan 15, 2019 11:22:28 GMT -6
absorbnix ...Go get a lawyer if you disagree... I agree with this. If the refund matters that much to anyone, rally together and get a lawyer to represent your case. Which brings us to the following point :
Question , Do you have legal dept email in 505-games i can forward my case to?
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Post by absorbnix on Jan 15, 2019 11:36:28 GMT -6
Instead of all of us working at cross purpose, I would like to invite all Mac and Linux backers to contact me on Riot IM so we can organize and share information/contacts. My user id is
@absorbnix:matrix.orgThanks. |
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Post by ssokolow on Jan 15, 2019 13:02:36 GMT -6
Instead of all of us working at cross purpose, I would like to invite all Mac and Linux backers to contact me on Riot IM so we can organize and share information/contacts. My user id is
@absorbnix:matrix.orgThanks. Sorry. It's bad enough that I haven't had time to get Discord integrated into my Pidgin all-in-one IM setup (mainly IRC and Google Talk these days) and have to use it as a pinned tab instead. I'm not really in the mood to install another chat client right now, even if it is open-source. |
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Post by absorbnix on Jan 15, 2019 13:16:14 GMT -6
Well, no matter which we choose that'll be the case for someone. That's why I suggested riot. Matrix and bridging is the solution to the problem of instant message network protocol proliferation. No other protocol hits everything necessary.
I understand though, I too am annoyed that the answer to 100 protocols is makign protocol 101.
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Post by Cale on Jan 15, 2019 14:34:13 GMT -6
gunlord500 As a PS4 backer I would rather lose my chance at the game than have fellow fans go without. Honestly, this is a community. If we don't stand up for the minority then we aren't doing our job as fans.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 15:06:24 GMT -6
gunlord500 As a PS4 backer I would rather lose my chance at the game than have fellow fans go without. Honestly, this is a community. If we don't stand up for the minority then we aren't doing our job as fans. My friend, what the heck? People are making arguments here about suing because the team isn't able to fulfill their Kickstarter platform. You are willing to extend that to every single backer and scrap the game completely? I'm all for giving the community an organized voice and standing up for the minority, but not at the cost of the whole project. Seperate note, if people want to organize for a lawsuit, I can make a thread here and limit it to the soul purpose of you getting together to share info. I can make it a private room for Linux / Mac backers only, trusting that those words request access are indeed backers of that platform (plus myself). |
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jan 15, 2019 17:41:40 GMT -6
So I had something of an idea. I don't know if it's a realistic solution or not, but it's something I thought I'd throw out there. Refunds are tricky for multiple reasons mentioned already. But what about transfers? For example, I know some people(myself included) who either missed out on backing for whatever reason or wanted to upgrade their tier and couldn't get together the funds in time. Depending on the number of people requesting a refund, might it be possible for one person to pay out someone's backing amount and get that as credit for an upgrade in their own tier or addons?
It's pretty unorthodox, and the only other case I can think of where people have bought out other people's addons in a crowdfunded game is Star Citizen, but if the only barriers to refunds are technical ones, this seems one way of getting around it without risk to the project itself.
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Post by illasera on Jan 15, 2019 17:53:40 GMT -6
So I had something of an idea. I don't know if it's a realistic solution or not, but it's something I thought I'd throw out there. Refunds are tricky for multiple reasons mentioned already. But what about transfers? For example, I know some people(myself included) who either missed out on backing for whatever reason or wanted to upgrade their tier and couldn't get together the funds in time. Depending on the number of people requesting a refund, might it be possible for one person to pay out someone's backing amount and get that as credit for an upgrade in their own tier or addons? It's pretty unorthodox, and the only other case I can think of where people have bought out other people's addons in a crowdfunded game is Star Citizen, but if the only barriers to refunds are technical ones, this seems one way of getting around it without risk to the project itself.
It can lead to some shady practices, Odd that you want in on this right now, when people are running away from this project like wild-fire.
(This by-the-way is the untold reason why no refunds are given, They bundled PC/Mac/Linux together, Consumer trust was lost over the years, If they will open the flood-gates, Everyone will try to refund, But yet again, Who's fault is that?)
It is true that this project is on a bigger scale than SoTN but i want to remind you , coming from the horse's mouth that under Konami, they established SoTN within 2 years with
a core team of 5 developers, and 7 developers from other teams inside of Konami, on and off and some inside beta-testers and at the TOP of development, they had 14 developers for a short period of time.
Reference is from the video on youtube of koji playing SoTN : ""Devs Play" Special - Castlevania: Symphony of the Night"
Can't remember the timestamp, And i will not provide a link here.
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Post by Galamoth on Jan 15, 2019 18:05:32 GMT -6
when people are running away from this project like wild-fire. You are sorely overestimating the impact that this is having on the project. This recent drop of the Mac & Linux versions is an obviously unfortunate bump in the road, but there's no sign of this becoming anything close to a "dumpster fire" like a few folks seem to like suggesting. |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 15, 2019 18:07:17 GMT -6
On the contrary, there are definitely enough of a number that want in to fill that need. We've seen quite a good number come around post-Curse of the Moon given that game's strength to itself and them coming to know the project through it, or just whoever missed the project entirely which are folks that still pop up regularly, many of them being active community members anxiously awaiting the retail launch as they have to. Your perception of this being a bust is a minority one, so I'd wager they outnumber Mac/Linux refund requests easily, to a pretty high ratio. If word gets out, who knows, 100:1? 1000:1? It could be chaos. If the system is good, we'd likely have to hold a lottery for people that want slots.
The question rather is how we manage it, and keep this from being an outright buy/sell of pledges. If it was to happen, I'd like to see the Fangamer system itself manage it, rather than us approving or trying to support something done solely person-to-person.
Even beyond that though, and which also eschews the obvious "sell it" idea in general, is that those affected want their money explicitly back from the project and from nothing/no one else.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 18:12:09 GMT -6
illasera Half your post was useful information, even though it was snarky. How long do you expect that to fly here? The other half is totally diverting from the topic. If you want to talk about how long the project is taking compared to SotN, do so in a relevant post. That has nothing to do with this current issue in this thread. SotN had a franchise before it to use a lot of assets from. This is done by Artplay which is like... what 6 people now? Outsourcing the game's development bulk to Dico and Mono-bit (and Wayforward now). All that AFTER they broke from IntiCreates. All on a crowd funded campaign that gave loads of stretch goals and backer incorporated content? I could go on and on, but honestly man... you are derailing the topic and you are being a smart ass even when you are on topic. But yeah, like illasera said, Scars. There is no way to even know who is a Linux backer or not. It's not a lack of funds issue, really. If they could be certain of the people to refund, I'm pretty sure they would. It's an issue though when a lot more people than the Linux backers want a refund because the game is taking so long and people have gone on a campaign to sow dissatisfaction. I'm sure that the amount of money 505 Games would have to re-allocate from the game budget would not only harm the final game, but might straight up kill it. The "untold" bit illasera put in is smarmy, but accurate. 505 Games has neither confirmed or denied that they can't tell Linux backers from Windows backers, but the evidence is in the choice that was never given. Fangamer has also declined to let me know if they could validate claims. It's a mess. We have people who deserve a refund, but it's simply impossible. The only real positive outcome I can see to work towards at this point is to show 505 Games they need to put effort into getting those platforms either unofficially or officially supported post launch. Don't expect them to comment on that though, because at this point, making promises to these good folks means nothing and would absolutely be used against them in the future should it prove impossible.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jan 15, 2019 18:13:17 GMT -6
illasera Not odd at all. "People running away" is just your perception, not some objective truth. There are still people that will occasionally ask if it's possible to back the game, and some us weren't quite able to upgrade to the tier we wanted before the campaign ended. Either way, the community has raised money on occasion outside of the normal Kickstarter/Fangamer structure, and it seems that this would be a possible route to make everyone - if not happy - at least compensated for the inconvenient turn of events. As for the SotN comment (I'm not sure why you brought that up, but I'll address it anyway), the game was developed in a relatively short time by a small number of core developers and multiple games worth of pre-existing assets. That seems to be something people either forget or conveniently overlook. Iga was able to make games on a relatively low budget because he had nearly a decade worth of art assets as his disposal. It would have taken considerably longer to make a game of SotN's scope and detail without that head start. XombieMike I agree that there's no way to tell for sure whether any given backer is a Linux/Mac user or not, but that becomes less relevant when the end result balances out anyway. It's why I brought up transfers instead of an outright community funded refund(which has other problems anyway). If the project isn't impacted either way, it doesn't matter that much if a couple of people slip through who shouldn't have. And if the person funding the refund is compensated in kind through an upgrade, then there should be no dissatisfaction there either.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 18:22:49 GMT -6
We are all posting at the same time. Scars, congrats on the 500 comments.  Scars, I also thought of crowd sourcing a refund for these people, and would in fact also put my money in on that effort. However, the big catch that prevents that, is there is no way to validate the claims. If it were just the 17 people here, and they only want refunds for reasonable tiers, I would be more inclined to continue without validation. We don't know what we are looking at though. Plus, what if it ends up working on Wine? That's some Windows emulation or something that some Windows games work on Linux. No idea, but it could happen. Plus, these folks can resale their codes and backer rewards. Also, with crowd funding on our own, transfer fees are a bitch to deal with. As much as I would love to start a crowd funded refund campaign, the chances of it being manageable and realistic are slim at best, and false hope and more disappointment at next to best, and too expensive, taken advantage of, and transfer fee ridden at worst. |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 15, 2019 18:25:13 GMT -6
As much as I would love to start a crowd funded refund campaign, the chances of it being manageable and realistic are slim at best, and false hope and more disappointment at next to best, and too expensive, taken advantage of, and transfer fee ridden at worst. He doesn't mean crowdfunding refunds, he means actually transfering their pledges to other backers or non-backers. They wouldn't be able to redeem their codes for anything afterward because the forfeiture has been made and given to that other person. The issue remains of identifying the genuine cases, but it has less risk and headache involved than funding-up refunds from scratch. Biggest hurdle I think though: they want 505/ArtPlay's money, not to help somebody else or get money from anything else. edit: Oh, you can just read his edit there for more explanation |
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 18:34:15 GMT -6
Oh.... Hmm... This is a new idea.
So, we should just ask Fangamer if it is possible to transfer the pledge (with receipt) to a new person, and the money be taken care of between those two people?
The issue that pops up for me when I think of that is, how does Fangamer know the money was transferred and both parties are happy? What if I say I'm selling my tier to some rando on the internet, but once I get the money just tell them to screw off?
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 15, 2019 18:38:04 GMT -6
yeah that's why I think it would only work well if handled within Fangamer's system like I mentioned earlier, so that the money in their existing backer database moves between the people there. Say they put up x number of tiers of alleged Mac/Linux backers for "sale" on a site. People make a mad rush in, pay them off, and the backers who listed them for sale get that money back from Fangamer. That's how I'm picturing it right now, unless I'm missing something edit: XombieMike sorry not right now, I'm still at work lol. Hopefully leaving soon tho |
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 18:39:08 GMT -6
I feel I'm too stupid to understand this. Can we voice chat about it?
I'm understanding what you are writing... but I think there are some pretty crazy details here that we might not be thinking of. I'll try and contact Fangamer about it.
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