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Post by thrashinuva on Jan 11, 2019 6:00:12 GMT -6
Aztec I sort of agree with that. Even if what you said was false (I believe it's true), a person who is typically interested in reviving a franchise, not based on the name of it, but by the director, should also be the kind of person who is likely to own a new system, even if they didn't plan to. Of course there are those who fall through the cracks, but the scenario still presents a person who is likely to be buying a new system eventually, even if they don't have one by the time the game comes out. There's a decent chance I could have been this kind of person. I intended to play on PC from the very beginning, because I believed that multi-platform development usually resulted in PC usually being the best platform, and so I believed it'd surely be available to play on PC by the end of it. If that wasn't the case, then PS4 is the only system I have that could potentially play the game, and if I was financially in a situation now as when I got my PS4, I wouldn't have it. However, I would get one eventually. I don't buy games for the consoles, I buy consoles for the games. Mine is not the only reasoning that I believe is valid, here. I just feel that some reasoning at all should be expected when investing/gambling. A casino will not give you back your money just because you regret it. They'll kick you out instead if you complain too much. Again it's a little different from a casino because there's liability here, but it's very similar.
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 11, 2019 11:08:08 GMT -6
ssokolow Thank you! I guess we have a few solutions which only 2 are good. Good solutions: Plan A. Hire GOG to make an official licensed version of the game in Linux, possibly Mac as well. Plan B. 505 Games, Artplay and DICO hire a fan to fix a Linux version, contract between them of some sorts. Bad solutions: Rely on Wine and Boot Camp for Linux and Mac to play the disc or the digital content. This means more work and updates from Artplay. Not a solid solution for either present and future. Alternative solutions: A. Unofficial release of the game after a few modders have fixed the data and make it available for Linux and Mac. Best way; a fix that only works if you own a original copy of the game. B. Nobody cares and the game will be PC exclusive on computers. I highly doubt Alternative and Bad solutions are any good, At All, in any way. I mean, How about any GOOD solution post launch? Let the fans get the games, get a fix out as soon as a whole lot of console and PC games have been sold? Rig up a meeting with fans that can help IGA for free (or money / thank you in credits etc.) and give everyone a piece of this? Need stats and numbers first? Well, consider this as an option towards giving the fans "more" even when this project seemed "done". Disclaimer; I support IGA & friends + partners. I do not encourage anyone to make anything unofficial.
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Post by ssokolow on Jan 11, 2019 14:26:13 GMT -6
ssokolow Thank you! I guess we have a few solutions which only 2 are good. Good solutions: Plan A. Hire GOG to make an official licensed version of the game in Linux, possibly Mac as well. Plan B. 505 Games, Artplay and DICO hire a fan to fix a Linux version, contract between them of some sorts. Bad solutions: Rely on Wine and Boot Camp for Linux and Mac to play the disc or the digital content. This means more work and updates from Artplay. Not a solid solution for either present and future. Alternative solutions: A. Unofficial release of the game after a few modders have fixed the data and make it available for Linux and Mac. Best way; a fix that only works if you own a original copy of the game. B. Nobody cares and the game will be PC exclusive on computers. I highly doubt Alternative and Bad solutions are any good, At All, in any way. I mean, How about any GOOD solution post launch? Let the fans get the games, get a fix out as soon as a whole lot of console and PC games have been sold? Rig up a meeting with fans that can help IGA for free (or money / thank you in credits etc.) and give everyone a piece of this? Need stats and numbers first? Well, consider this as an option towards giving the fans "more" even when this project seemed "done". Disclaimer; I support IGA & friends + partners. I do not encourage anyone to make anything unofficial.
Regarding Plan A, GOG doesn't make solutions to get games working reliably. They track down and negotiate with rightsholders, then prepare, test, and support installers which integrate and configure existing solutions to get tricky old games functioning normally on modern systems despite the rightsholders no longer releasing patches. (That includes pre-applying community-made patches when they can get permission to do so. They also sometimes buy the publishing rights to old classics if it's the only way to re-release them.)
Aftermarket Linux installers for arbitrary Windows games via Wine is also the exception. Adding Linux and modern Mac support to games that never had a native port is something they mainly accomplish via ScummVM and DOSBox. (Probably because it takes much less testing to be confident that the result works reliably. ScummVM is known for the rigorous testing that goes into its compatibility chart and a DOS emulator is much lower-level, so there's far less chance that a specific piece of buggy code will only get encountered by the game in hard-to-trigger corner cases.)
In a situation like this, you'd need to pay a company like Codeweavers which does do that sort of contracted "Get a program working reliably on non-Windows platforms, writing whatever Wine patches are necessary," work. (eg. Valve has hired Codeweavers to work on Proton, which combines tooling for launching Wine from Steam and a bunch of Wine patches, some of which haven't made it back into Wine upstream yet.)
You'd also want to arrange collaboration between them, GOG, and 505 Games to make sure that GOG offers ready-made Linux installers containing exactly the version that Codeweavers verified to be perfectly compatible with the patches and tweaks they wrote, so compatibility can't regress. (And GOG users wouldn't be especially happy with 505, since some jerk publishers have had a history of throwing one DRM-free version at GOG and then only giving further updates to Steam users as DRM-encumbered junk.)
Plan B would be the best choice... but there's that word "hire". Money is the whole reason 505 doesn't want to offer Linux and Mac versions themselves.
The good news is that browren has volunteered to do it for free if 505 is willing. I didn't feel like logging into LinkedIn to double-check his profile, but his claims are almost a perfect storm. (An employee at Canonical, experienced in C, C#, and kernel internals, among other things, who's already verified his ability to build and run UE4 on Ubuntu and is willing to work for free and under NDA for up to 15 hours a week... he just can't do Mac and insists that any NDA he signs allow him to share status updates with other backers on any technical issues he's encountering.)
As for alternative solution A, not likely. There's usually a significant gap between the kinds of modifications modders do and reverse-engineering enough of the compiled portions of a game's native-code engine extensions (eg. middleware) to port the game to a new platform. It'd basically devolve to a community-maintained Wine solution. (And in this case, there's a very valid reason for middleware to be the problem: The official developers have access to the middleware's SDK (Software Development Kit) while fans basically have to reverse-engineer and re-create the middleware from scratch if the version of it that has been compiled into the game doesn't natively run on the target platform.)
(I say "usually" because, every now and then, you find an open-source re-creation of a game engine which developed out of rabid efforts to patch a game without access to its source code... such as Transport Tycoon Deluxe fans producing ttdpatch and then OpenTTD, which is an open-source engine that doesn't even need the original data files anymore. That said, that always takes years and years.)
...and please don't say "PC exclusive on computers". It's an almost meaningless phrase since "PC" refers to the hardware platform, not the OS and, in common use, "computer" is usually synonymous with "IBM PC-compatible computer". (As opposed to things like descendants of the Commodore Amiga or pre-Intel macs or smartphones or gaming consoles.)
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 11, 2019 19:28:07 GMT -6
ssokolow Wanted PC to be extra crystal clear for us non-programers or Linux / Mac users. Thanks for the insights!
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fatihG
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Post by fatihG on Jan 11, 2019 19:52:23 GMT -6
Been a while since I checked out these forums...
All I can say is... let's be honest.
505 games/Art Play deemed Linux and Mac not profitable and wouldn't want to waste any more money(if they actually already did so).
The responses you get from 505/question are obviously on purpose vague as no game company/publisher will outright tell anyone what is going on behind the scenes.
It simply will not happen.
'Hiring' a random volunteer, even under NDA is risky. As you basically would be giving them full access to the source code.
Being this 'aggressive' and demanding anything form 505 games, is simply not going to help you out.
I can see Question making an effort, as this can be/is seen as a negative, but apart from that I can't see Question doing anything other than damage control.
All in all, in my opinion a wasted effort.
Do I agree with them backing out on their promises? I don't.
Should they refund the backers that wanted Linux/Mac? Yeah definitely.
As for checking which people wanted which platforms... Doesnt Fangamer have a survey? Can't they check what people had picked?
Or was PC/Mac/Linux grouped together? I can't change my survey answers any more and thus can not check. And by know they probably already removed the Mac/Linux options anyway.
Actually, since the survey answers are locked now... Are Linux/Mac people automatically assigned to PC?
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 11, 2019 19:55:57 GMT -6
fatihG the choices were only Steam and GOG. I checked my own survey a bit ago and took some screen shots for something else.
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on Jan 11, 2019 20:33:19 GMT -6
Actually, since the survey answers are locked now... Are Linux/Mac people automatically assigned to PC? I believe the surveys just labeled them all together as "PC/Linux/Mac" customers, or as Purify said, just "Steam/GoG," with the understanding that Steam or GoG encompassed all of those computer platforms. That's where the problem lies--it was a rather grievous oversight at the beginning of things, one for which we're paying dearly now. |
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Post by ssokolow on Jan 11, 2019 22:45:10 GMT -6
ssokolow Wanted PC to be extra crystal clear for us non-programers or Linux / Mac users. Thanks for the insights!
I don't follow. How is saying "Windows" rather than "PC" unclear?
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on Jan 12, 2019 4:35:22 GMT -6
ssokolow Wanted PC to be extra crystal clear for us non-programers or Linux / Mac users. Thanks for the insights!
I don't follow. How is saying "Windows" rather than "PC" unclear?
Enkeria isn't a native English speaker, "PC exclusive on computers" is the sort of phrasing he often uses on here, haha. I don't mind it, I imagine him speaking with an accent and I think it's cute :3 |
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Post by ssokolow on Jan 12, 2019 5:33:15 GMT -6
I don't follow. How is saying "Windows" rather than "PC" unclear?
Enkeria isn't a native English speaker, "PC exclusive on computers" is the sort of phrasing he often uses on here, haha. I don't mind it, I imagine him speaking with an accent and I think it's cute :3
Ahh. Well...
Enkeria : To be absolutely clear, "PC" is short for "Personal Computer". It came about because everything capable of running Windows except Intel Macs are descended from from 3rd-party clones of the IBM Personal Computer. Thus, "PC" is technically short for "IBM PC-compatible computer".
Saying "PC exclusive on computers" is like saying "Automobile exclusive on cars" with the intent that "Automobile" mean "Toyota".
You can have a "Windows PC" or a "Linux PC" but "PC computer" makes no more sense than "car vehicle".
Ever since Apple switched to using Intel chips, even Macs technically qualify as PCs, though people usually draw a contrast between PCs and Macs for several reasons:
- As a holdover from the days when Macs couldn't run Windows.
- Because Mac hardware is unique and weird. (eg. desktops which lack expansion slots for GPU upgrades, laptops with T2 lockout chips that refuse to boot anything but MacOS until you turn down security in the MacOS control panel and, even then, still refuse to boot anything but MacOS or Windows, etc.)
- Because, most of the time, "non-Mac PC" is needlessly verbose and using "PC" as a shorthand for that is cleaner.
- Because we tend to use "Mac" to refer to the combination of hardware and software, and you can't legally patch MacOS to run on non-Apple hardware.
TL;DR: If it has an Intel or AMD chip in it, it's a PC, no matter what OS it's running, but we normally only include Macs under the "PC" heading when talking about things that you can do with any PC, like installing Windows on them.
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 12, 2019 5:46:01 GMT -6
I have many PCs. One is mac. XD Yeah sorry! Will try to improve upon the technical wordings on here. Sir yes sir!
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Post by illasera on Jan 12, 2019 8:05:50 GMT -6
As to Mac/Linux platform support, I see replies suggesting the emulation of an operating system or the usage of compatibility layer software that i will not name.
It is not up to the users to come up with those solutions, That is why i asked Question , If he will name the solutions others named, It will be a sign of support and endorsement of such software. However, it is now convenient for Question to disappear and allow people to dogfall each-other eventhough he claimed that he/his company reads all the posts and replying to them. We are 4 pages after his last reply, eventhough new questions were offered and nothing from him was offered in return. (He probably got nothing to say, But to expect us to just accept there is no cross-platform support and hope this discussion will die-out)
To sum everything up by Question so far : "No linux / Mac support offered, No refunds, No 3rd-party solutions endorsed by 505-games". He just wrote it in a more PR way so people won't get angry, But that's the gist of it.
(I have asked a series of new questions that remain unanswered (The following questions need to be answered by Question and not by the users to showcase an official statement from the publisher)).
Steam equivalent thread provided :
There is no official reply there as well. At this point, I will cry for public outreach and start alerting people as to the state of development of this project, I will encourage you all to do the same. (While it may seem hostile and the need to defend the developers will surface, Remember, They are not defending you)
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 12, 2019 10:09:58 GMT -6
illasera505 Games do not work on the weekends. Don't expect a response Friday evening to Monday morning. Tagging people once is enough. It's not like additional tags in one post gives them extra notifications. Not telling you that's wrong or to stop. Just letting you know. Not wanting comments on your questions or posts from forum members that aren't 505 Games is something I think I'm understanding from your message. Sorry if I'm wrong. However, if you want a private conversation then just PM Question. Question is not obligated to give you answers that satisfy you. He does his best. Sure, there are things I'd like to confirm or know too, but even though I speak with him privately in moderator chat, it doesn't mean I'm going to get every bit of information I want. It's a matter of responsibly giving information to the publuc. In your case it may also be a case where he has denied responding to you if you are treating him disrespectfully. I doubt that is the case, but consider that your attitude may be a factor in getting what you want. I would comment on your specific questions, but that's the opposite of what you are asking for. I believe the answers to at least some of your questions are already officially provided by saying they aren't providing support for Linux or Mac. I understand your anger and frustration. However, if you are not going to play the game, your business in the community is concluded if your only reason for sticking around is venting your frustration by being disrespectful to our staff. I honestly hope you will change your mind and play on another platform. You are also free to remain here to campaign for a refund so long as you do so with respect. I do not like banning people. I do not like silencing people. It is our responsibility to cultivate a healthy community, and although this dark smudge will persist, I don't think it serves the rest of the community who will remain here to endure the posts of people who are only here to bad mouth the team. If you find yourself typing something that can be judged as a snide remark, consider respectfully and quietly leaving, and do so with my personal respect and apology that this mess happened to you.
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Post by Starsmith on Jan 12, 2019 11:55:11 GMT -6
Additionally, if Mac or Linux is the only platform you were able to play this game, I don't think you should have backed the campaign at all. If Mac/Linux players don’t back Kickstarters that promise Mac/Linux, then developers will have even less incentive to make Mac/Linux games, which serves the players not at all. This is a bad situation for them to be in: some Mac/Linux players have to be willing to risk being taken advantage of so that developers know Mac/Linux is a market—that was the original purpose of this Kickstarter, even. “Hey, there’s a market for this kind of game!” Boy howdy is there. Mac/Linux players had to say they were part of that market. This situation here does not affect me, I have a PC to play it on. But I’ll remember who decided that some of their backers were good for their money but not good enough to deliver to. |
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thrashinuva
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[TI2] I'm interested in this.
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Post by thrashinuva on Jan 12, 2019 12:43:25 GMT -6
StarsmithYou're right it was perhaps too strong of a stance. I still feel that a person under those circumstances should be more cautious, and as a result not acting as if it's a stranger occurrence that it actually is.
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Post by heybrett on Jan 12, 2019 22:17:00 GMT -6
I am not a Mac or Linux user but something severely troubling has been pointed out by jph on the official Kickstarter comment section. Swap the word “Refunds” for “Rewards” in their official statement. See Kickstarters page as well for text regarding rewards and available funding obligations. Bloodstained Kickstarter“As to the refund question, refunds for Kickstarter projects come out of the pool of funds initially raised by backers. As per the KS terms of use, if an element of a project cannot be completed and there are funds remaining, a refund should be offered. In this instance, the initial funding for the project has been expended on development. Our current progress towards launch is due to additional funding from the publisher, 505 Games.” The above in quotation, that is official. Check it, double, triple check it at the official link. If you are refuting offer a factual statement from an official source rather than speculation on what they might do. Look at what they are doing and see the excuse they are using and see if the same doesn’t apply to rewards via Kickstarter rules. If they ran out and do not have money from the Kickstarter for Refunds, do they have the money set aside for the Rewards? Is the presumption 505 is going to honor rewards? If so, on what basis is that founded on? The magnanimous nature of publishing companies? I have seen Superbackers who are not on the Mac/Linux platform come to the defense of Mac/Linux users on an ethical basis. Yet certain sites are trying to silence any legitimate concerns. Shouldn’t this be addressed officially before the game hits? It seems like they as well as their blind defenders are trying to sweep this under the rug to avoid backlash from all backers before launch. They are completely silent on the official Kickstarter regarding the rewards. This includes both physical and digital as even the digital would require extra effort and funding on the part of 505. Physical seems like a far cry at this juncture. 505 is apparently under no obligation or inclination to offer them as with refunds for Linux/Mac users. The project is endorsing this thinking as their ethical stance as far as refunds. Is it really a stretch that rewards fall under the same line of thinking? Could it possibly be that they are ignoring this, asking or making back end deals for censorship from fan sites so that it doesn’t sully their launch? In a nutshell, the Kickstarter ran out of money and 505 is picking up the tab to publish the game. They are silent regarding rewards which are also required to be honored by the Kickstarter Terms yet escapable in the same fashion. The fashion being that the Kickstarter failed by their own admission and are not subject to obligations made via the Kickstarter. Read the above official stance again. Where are the assurances of anything else under obligation regarding the Kickstarter? Some fans are trying to obscure this fact by censorship and yelling at Mac/Linux backers telling them just buy another platform or pay for another OS. They just want the game and don’t care how it comes about and how many backers lose their rewards. They should be accountable to give an official response as they have already shown themselves to be dishonorable by not honoring their promises. As well, fan sites should be ashamed to censor concerned users for voicing their thoughts for whatever reason they justify to themselves. |
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jan 13, 2019 5:11:21 GMT -6
Rewards may be seen as more "safe" (at least in my mind they are) because producing them shouldn't be as costly as developing on a platform with unspecified "technical problems". I believed (but I'm not 100% sure because I only kickstarted two video games in my life neither of which has come out yet) the funding for the rewards is kept separated at the end of the campaign itself.
It wouldn't hurt to have some official confirmation on this, though. Especially because I personally put a lot of money into my tier so yeah, I wouldn't like any surprises.
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Post by illasera on Jan 13, 2019 6:02:51 GMT -6
I am not a Mac or Linux user but something severely troubling has been pointed out by jph on the official Kickstarter comment section. Swap the word “Refunds” for “Rewards” in their official statement. See Kickstarters page as well for text regarding rewards and available funding obligations. Shouldn’t this be addressed officially before the game hits? It seems like they as well as their blind defenders are trying to sweep this under the rug to avoid backlash from all backers before launch. They are completely silent on the official Kickstarter regarding the rewards. This includes both physical and digital as even the digital would require extra effort and funding on the part of 505. Physical seems like a far cry at this juncture. 505 is apparently under no obligation or inclination to offer them as with refunds for Linux/Mac users. The project is endorsing this thinking as their ethical stance as far as refunds. Is it really a stretch that rewards fall under the same line of thinking? Could it possibly be that they are ignoring this, asking or making back end deals for censorship from fan sites so that it doesn’t sully their launch? In a nutshell, the Kickstarter ran out of money and 505 is picking up the tab to publish the game. They are silent regarding rewards which are also required to be honored by the Kickstarter Terms yet escapable in the same fashion. The fashion being that the Kickstarter failed by their own admission and are not subject to obligations made via the Kickstarter. Read the above official stance again. Where are the assurances of anything else under obligation regarding the Kickstarter? Keep things in perspective and stick to what is factual.
Was there a given deadline to when the awards will be shipped? Did we reach the time-period of the deadline? if not , when will it be?
If further information as to when the awards will be shipped is needed, then you should ask about it.
(There is an inactive 505-games spokesman here, he could address your issues... No, not inactive, i have been told there is another term for it a more politically correct one, "Does not answer on his 7 days weekend" spokesman, You may ask him or PM him , You should PM him so others won't see; They may have feedback that will prevent him from leading you on, Its easier to fool people in private (Lack of second opinion). "Because the guilty don't like the bright lights of an open inquiry"
At the moment, I would like to keep up with what is factual, which is the lack of promised platform support and out-right REFUSAL to officially solve the issue in any form nor reimburse the consumers... Maybe awards should be a different topic.
As far as public outreach is going, Some videos (on small channels at the moment) on the subject already popped and i know others are in the making. The public outreach is about to EXPAND to other games that are published by 505-games, with a referral link to this topic as well as the kickstarter comment section; In hope that others will be aware of who they are doing their dealings with, Maybe some pressure from other developers and consumers will help in changing some fraudulent policies. |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 13, 2019 13:37:52 GMT -6
They are completely silent on the official Kickstarter regarding the rewards. This includes both physical and digital as even the digital would require extra effort and funding on the part of 505. Physical seems like a far cry at this juncture. 505 is apparently under no obligation or inclination to offer them as with refunds for Linux/Mac users. . Some fans are trying to obscure this fact by censorship and yelling at Mac/Linux backers telling them just buy another platform or pay for another OS. They just want the game and don’t care how it comes about and how many backers lose their rewards. They should be accountable to give an official response as they have already shown themselves to be dishonorable by not honoring their promises. As well, fan sites should be ashamed to censor concerned users for voicing their thoughts for whatever reason they justify to themselves. Okay, one thing at a time here. Backer rewards: I can kind of see your logic here, but it's just too far of a reach to make this correlation. A large part of your argument seems to hang on the idea that the team hasn't responded to concerns about backer rewards existing/being delivered, but as someone that has read and seen everything, I haven't seen these questions, at least not in the last several months - and those I remember are just questions about specifics they couldn't tell us yet (where/if logos will be on packaging, dimensions, materials, etc). The question of "do they still exist" is a new idea coming just from this post afaik. The last time I heard something said that could be applied to "general existence" was last week in our mod chat when a 505 member mentioned they were still in the planning phase for them in general and that was nothing was in or approaching the chopping block. Silencing and censorship: You're talking about fan sites censoring/removing things. I take this to mean you're talking about here, the Official Forums. The example I imagine you're talking about is your own guest post, which actually hasn't been deleted, still existing in a locked archive. It was deemed as disruptive and unhelpful at the time, but we do not like and actually do not 99% of the time remove posts or users. In our ~3.5 years, I can only remember us banning 2 users. Here is your post - I'm sorry it's so small, I had to decrease my resolution quite a bit to fit all of the single spaced lines:  As you can see, the other post was a second guest correcting you. This was/is a road we don't want to go down - we will receive and facilitate any discussion of discontent, criticism, disagreement, solutions etc as those all work toward the good and betterment of the project/game, but we can't host a campaign for destruction and derision of the project, that is also seemingly based on a lack of information and perhaps a moment of emotion. Besides what you might mean by this example, I/we don't know or haven't been involved in any instance of removing and censoring this discussion. If it was on Reddit, that is not an official outlet for Bloodstained. The 505 guys have a presence there, but it's still 100% a fan entity. Going forward: As I've said, we haven't and do not intend on removing discussion in good faith. If my post answers your concern, that's awesome and I hope you can stick around and enjoy the game and your rewards, and if not, you are welcome to wait until working hours for someone from 505 to come and give you the same word. It seems you have an expectation that they should be around at midnight on Saturday and not answering posts from Friday evening to then is willful ignorance of your concerns, but I think that's unreasonable. Also to reiterate to all, "if I can't be happy, no one will be happy - burn it down!" is not something we will allow unchecked. edit: To add, if some were unaware, 505 Games is reachable daily (but not always Sat/Sun) on the official Discord server. The response there is the most immediate. discordapp.com/invite/014lXDcmehlDCOkwC |
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Post by Question on Jan 14, 2019 9:57:07 GMT -6
Physical rewards are still happening. Being able to fulfill those rewards, along with the the overall game, are factored into our time and finance plan.
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yey