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Post by XombieMike on Jul 14, 2015 11:06:25 GMT -6
CastleDan don't apologize for the large blocks of text, each one of those points are excellent. The thread starts out mentioning MoF is flawed, and pointing out things that make people feel that way are important too. While I liked the swimming in MoF and other aspects of it too, I can't claim it really feels like a true Castlevania to me. Although it has merit, the point you made about music is huge to me. Back to swimming though, SotN did it well, but I think it can be improved. Water levels open a fresh bit of variety to an exploration game.
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lod7
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Post by lod7 on Jul 14, 2015 11:15:24 GMT -6
CastleDan 100% agree with the pacing. Mobility is everything in an Igavania type because as you said about drops and rates. Being able to transition quickly from one room to the next in order to killan enemy quickly for drops is a must. There is no point in having a lot of drops if killing enemies takes too long that gamer fatigue sets in.
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Hyrist
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Post by Hyrist on Jul 14, 2015 11:17:09 GMT -6
Water will be an interesting dynamic to dig into, but I don't feel as if it will be an important one to really go full depth on.
To be honest I'd be fine if water was back to the auto-death-pits they were in the classic games ... and I am leaning towards the idea that they SHOULD do so for Classic Mode.
The typical game mode? If they do it well? Absolutely. Though I did like STON's underwater sections. So... perhaps a compromise? Swimming and air management up until relics are obtained that allow for the bypass of that mechanic and the ability to explore underwater, similar to how it was done in OoE.
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Post by kdfukuyama on Jul 14, 2015 11:21:11 GMT -6
I'm just curious about Mirror of Fate. From screenshots and Youtube gameplay, it looks so... empty. I mean, it looks like a tiny main character in a huge uninspiring place, lacking a good amount of platforms, environments and enemies to interact. Looks a bit boring.
Maybe because of those specific screenshots and videos I found.
Anyway, about the interaction with water transmuting Miriam to a chimera looks very nice. But for me, it should be an active skill which you can choose the proper situation to use it, or at least, an option to switch between active and passive.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 14, 2015 11:35:35 GMT -6
Maybe because of those specific screenshots and videos I found. Nah. That's how it actually is. Or rather, how it felt to me. I really like how Jim's vampire lore actually plays into how Alucard deals with water. As for the physics themselves, they don't feel odd at all to me, as this is what we've had in Mega Man for decades. I agree with castledan's points here, and Iga himself has pointed some of these things out. The grand epic feel/orchesteral soundtrack, Hollywood edge that everything has does away with the game-y touches and charm of what is great about Castlevania games. They're not that serious, there's little things everywhere that don't make sense, but that's what great about video games. They don't have to make sense, they should be fantastical. As an aside, I guess it might be vague or throw people off that we use the word "charm" so much to describe these things, but I can't think of a better way to describe it. Someone said there was a "90s" aspect to it, and I think that might very well be part of it, but I think another is that the game is developed embracing the medium that it is: it's a video game. Not a graphical Hollywood showcase of features and big names. |
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Post by lod7 on Jul 14, 2015 11:36:44 GMT -6
I'm just curious about Mirror of Fate. From screenshots and Youtube gameplay, it looks so... empty. I mean, it looks like a tiny main character in a huge uninspiring place, lacking a good amount of platforms, environments and enemies to interact. Looks a bit boring. Maybe because of those specific screenshots and videos I found. Anyway, about the interaction with water transmuting Miriam to a chimera looks very nice. But for me, it should be an active skill which you can choose the proper situation to use it, or at least, an option to switch between active and passive. But when will you ever need it to not be activated when you are underwater? I understand allowing you the option to turn it off in a "relic" menu but having a designated button that you need to press or worse yet replace another button's function just to transform into an underwater chimera type would kill the flow. For example the ability to "sink" in aria of sorrow was equipped via the yellow souls category of the game same with the ability to stand in water,this sacrificed useful yellow souls like the headhunter which upped your stats. In the sequel that ability was moved to the grey souls which can be toggled on or off depending if the player needs it or not. In this regard the flow does not slow down unless a specific situation is needed where that ability is an impedement more then a benefit. As I said the transformation could be instant and would be more a visual immersion feature then anything else. Because whats the difference with that then with a relic that just allows you to move at normal speed underwater, or getting rid of a breathing bar? |
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 14, 2015 12:10:02 GMT -6
I think it needs to be recognized a lot of what made SOTN work is because of how all the things you needed were right there for you to use, and the things that are less convenient for cool even still. (that made no sense let me elaborate)
SOTN makes things quick for you. The spells you could do were there in button input form right away. You don't have to equip a spell to use it... which means your spell is there along with your sword, along with your shield, with your relics....etc.
What imo was bad about the DS games is it made it so that the spell type functions had to be equipped, which allowed for less of other things being used. Which made it less fun because it's a constant, well if I want to use this I must switch, If I want to try that I must switch.
So you could do a spell, while still having a shield, while still having a sword, while still doing many other functions. All your spells are at your disposal without having to switch between them.
Where SOTN fails but still manages to be cool is the health system. DS games you just pressed pause and clicked the potion item and your health increased. It was way quicker this way then having to equip the food. However, SOTN manages it in a cool way by showing you the food and having a very cool visual effect when eating the food. If you are gonna go the direction of making the process more difficult than rewarding the player with nice visual effects is the way to do it.
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kdfukuyama
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Post by kdfukuyama on Jul 14, 2015 12:27:57 GMT -6
I'm just curious about Mirror of Fate. From screenshots and Youtube gameplay, it looks so... empty. I mean, it looks like a tiny main character in a huge uninspiring place, lacking a good amount of platforms, environments and enemies to interact. Looks a bit boring. Maybe because of those specific screenshots and videos I found. Anyway, about the interaction with water transmuting Miriam to a chimera looks very nice. But for me, it should be an active skill which you can choose the proper situation to use it, or at least, an option to switch between active and passive. I understand allowing you the option to turn it off in a "relic" menu but having a designated button that you need to press or worse yet replace another button's function just to transform into an underwater chimera type would kill the flow. For example the ability to "sink" in aria of sorrow was equipped via the yellow souls category of the game same with the ability to stand in water,this sacrificed useful yellow souls like the headhunter which upped your stats. In the sequel that ability was moved to the grey souls which can be toggled on or off depending if the player needs it or not. In this regard the flow does not slow down unless a specific situation is needed where that ability is an impedement more then a benefit. As I said the transformation could be instant and would be more a visual immersion feature then anything else. Because whats the difference with that then with a relic that just allows you to move at normal speed underwater, or getting rid of a breathing bar? For example, a place with platforms underwater where you can jump and go outside the water like at the beginning of SoTN.  Imagine changing automatically from human to a chimera (or whatever) all the time when you jump? Of course, if it's more visual than anything, would be ok. But I think in this case is a waste of a new system opportunity. |
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 14, 2015 12:50:02 GMT -6
That image is the perfect example for my castle layout thread. That room isn't repeated anywhere, and the layout isn't either. That design is uniquely it's own. The later DS games unique rooms such as that became more and more rare, it started becoming the same background copy and pasted with the same layouts copy and pasted. Which did two things... Made it more confusing to navigate the castle and made it less interesting.
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Post by lod7 on Jul 14, 2015 14:08:42 GMT -6
@kofukuyama
I am only going for a purely aesthetic change. I do not want a new system of gameplay to take effect when I am underwater.
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Ciel
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Post by Ciel on Jul 14, 2015 14:41:00 GMT -6
I don't think it's mean at all. Is there anything in specific you think needs to be avoided? *wall of text* I 100% agree with you. Mirror of Fate felt so boring and dull for me, I almost stop playing in the middle of it because I was feeling sleepy most of the time while playing it. The backgrounds were generic, lifeless, the enemies were boring and none of them were unique. And in the end, I was disappointed at the final battle, like "This is it? It is just that?", I mean, Gabriel vanished and nothing happens. |
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zero
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Post by zero on Jul 15, 2015 0:09:29 GMT -6
I think the most disappointing aspect is you were promised 4 unique characters and they were pretty much all the same. So there's a good example of what not to do.
Edit: One of them was also only in the tutorial.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 15, 2015 20:30:33 GMT -6
I think the most disappointing aspect is you were promised 4 unique characters and they were pretty much all the same. So there's a good example of what not to do. Edit: One of them was also only in the tutorial. Precisely what I meant when I said that the game initially sounded like it would be similar to Dracula's Curse. That game was on the NES and had characters with only jump/attack + subweapon, but even so it felt more varied than Mirror of Fate. Without spoiling things...a certain someone using a whip, too? Come on, man... |
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Jul 25, 2015 9:26:53 GMT -6
Water will be an interesting dynamic to dig into, but I don't feel as if it will be an important one to really go full depth on. To be honest I'd be fine if water was back to the auto-death-pits they were in the classic games ... and I am leaning towards the idea that they SHOULD do so for Classic Mode. ... Heh, that would be cool if classic mode had killer water. Maybe even killer stairs/water combo. That might be taking it too far though. ... SOTN makes things quick for you. The spells you could do were there in button input form right away. You don't have to equip a spell to use it... which means your spell is there along with your sword, along with your shield, with your relics....etc. What imo was bad about the DS games is it made it so that the spell type functions had to be equipped, which allowed for less of other things being used. Which made it less fun because it's a constant, well if I want to use this I must switch, If I want to try that I must switch. So you could do a spell, while still having a shield, while still having a sword, while still doing many other functions. All your spells are at your disposal without having to switch between them. Where SOTN fails but still manages to be cool is the health system. DS games you just pressed pause and clicked the potion item and your health increased. It was way quicker this way then having to equip the food. However, SOTN manages it in a cool way by showing you the food and having a very cool visual effect when eating the food. If you are gonna go the direction of making the process more difficult than rewarding the player with nice visual effects is the way to do it. I think these are two really great points. It sounds like IGA isn't too keen on street fighter like commands for this game, but if it's done I think the SOTN route vs the DS games route of having them all accessible at once is the better system. That does not mean they should all be available from the start though, unless you consider them cheat codes. |
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Rigel
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Post by Rigel on Jul 26, 2015 13:11:21 GMT -6
That Enric Alvarez should never have happened lol
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Post by Rigel on Jul 27, 2015 16:50:44 GMT -6
also what happens when your team designs only three enemies to fill a castle lol
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Post by Canopus on Jul 30, 2015 4:59:47 GMT -6
Mmm... I'm against locking out combat for underwater areas. How else will we collect crystals from ocean born enemies?? Besides, it doesn't feel natural to lock it out.
Miriam will be there to fight for her life, not take a leisurely deep sea diving trip. Further, she will clearly have magic (likely electric magic, at that); so what reason would there be to omit these as gameplay elements? Challenge is one thing. I'd limit what she could use underwater. No heavy weaponry, electricity would conduct and damage her as well, whip like weapons would be useless and ineffective, while knives and small-arms would be fully viable, albeit slightly slower, while pole-arms would only be able to thrust (similar to a harpoon).
These seem more accurate to me, though in her case... I suppose she can break rules. Whatever the result, I am staunchly against removing underwater combat, as it would omit the entirety of water based demon killing and crystal collecting. (No combat against mermaids, none against giant cephalopods. Zero against water demons, Poseidon, Leviathan, or anything of the sort.)
It becomes a burden as opposed to a boon, and limits creativity to dodge mechanics and underwater puzzles.
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cecil-kain
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Post by cecil-kain on Jul 31, 2015 15:26:46 GMT -6
Mmm... I'm against locking out combat for underwater areas. How else will we collect crystals from ocean born enemies?? Besides, it doesn't feel natural to lock it out. Miriam will be there to fight for her life, not take a leisurely deep sea diving trip. Further, she will clearly have magic (likely electric magic, at that); so what reason would there be to omit these as gameplay elements? Challenge is one thing. I'd limit what she could use underwater. No heavy weaponry, electricity would conduct and damage her as well, whip like weapons would be useless and ineffective, while knives and small-arms would be fully viable, albeit slightly slower, while pole-arms would only be able to thrust (similar to a harpoon). These seem more accurate to me, though in her case... I suppose she can break rules. Whatever the result, I am staunchly against removing underwater combat, as it would omit the entirety of water based demon killing and crystal collecting. (No combat against mermaids, none against giant cephalopods. Zero against water demons, Poseidon, Leviathan, or anything of the sort.) It becomes a burden as opposed to a boon, and limits creativity to dodge mechanics and underwater puzzles. No need to remove underwater combat completely, just make the player earn it --the same way they earn the double jump in other IGAvania games.  |
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Post by crocodile on Aug 14, 2015 13:13:54 GMT -6
So I never played Mirror of Fate so I looked through some LPs on Youtube. Overall, with regards to water or ledge mechanics from that game making it into Bloodstained, I can only say  I'll be honest in that I can't think of a single game I've played that had separate swimming mechanics where the swimming part was equally as fun as moving in the ground or air. It just slows movement to a crawl and reduces combat options. Some games are better about it than others but still, moving on the ground/air was always more fun. I think the manner in which the DS games did it - you are naturally boyant but once you've obtained relic/soul X, you can move underwater just as you could above water - is the best. The only thing I'd probably address is how slow you are to descend. You can usually ascend rather quickly with multiple jumps but have to slowly sink to move down. Being able to fast sink or divekick underwater would be great. As for ledge grabbing in 2D games, I'm not a huge fan. Another way to slow down the game while often not offering enough other advantages. I feel its often a bit of a crutch that allows developers to not make their platforming sections as tight as they would otherwise. I was for example very disappointed when I learned months ago that Mighty No 9 would have ledge grabbing instead of the wall cling (like in the X, Z and ZX games) or nothing at all (like in the Classic series). Again, I haven't played Mirror of Fate but watching through the LPs, I honestly don't see anything in that game mechanically that I'd want in Bloodstained that wasn't already in an Igavania. Plus combat in that game looks to be all flash and little precision or speed. Ugh  |
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on Aug 14, 2015 13:45:19 GMT -6
yeah, not thrilled with mof swim mechanics, its like hitting a brick wall in the game you have to chip through with your spoon, i will say bravo for giving it a try, now i know it isnt a great idea.
i can however agree with Somas floating till he got something that allowed him to breathe underwater, so maybe a compromise, miriam can hold her breath for a few seconds and will sink into water slowly, but you move slower and can infinity jump just like every other igavania out there until you get x item which reduces the slow effect to almost nothing (just enough to be noticed but not enough to be an actual hindrance) and lets you water jump higher
this provides 3 things, first water is a hindrance but you can still explore a bit and you can challenge yourself to see if you can get to that tantalizing item under the ledge before you have to surface again, second once you get the item it still feels like youre in water rather than bubbly air, but now you can maneuver and attack easily, third you could add in another relic later on which increases your speed to faster than jog (similar to panther soul but for water) and now you have a progression of ability that goes from hindered to badass
also would be a neat touch if heavy 2h weapons actually made you sink faster for an added dynamic (ok, to get to that weapon under the ledge i need to attack twice to get low enough, hop 5 times for distance, grab it, and then hurry my ass back up to the surface before i drown... or i could just wait until i get the swim relic and grab it then, hmm...)
a similar instance occurs in SotN actually, at the bottom of the outer wall theres a room with the mirror cuirass and jewel knuckle. there are 2 ways into the room, one can be done early on but requires fighting a powerful enemy with attacks that cover almost the whole ledge hes on and medusa heads running interference, and then you have to figure out the trick to get into the room. done this way which has a high chance of dying nets you 2 powerful items early on, the other way to get into the room involves just waiting until you have mist, and by then the cuirass is mainly only useful for its status immunity and the jewel knuckle isnt nearly as powerful or useful compared to your growing arsenal
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