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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 11, 2018 19:22:36 GMT -6
DSLevantine I can understand how you feel, and IGA is responsible in the sense of being the head of the project, but I also think he's not really to blame for the GoG debacle. The way it usually works in the business world is that you sign a contract with someone and need to be held to it afterwards--if they put in nasty conditions or anything like that, you're screwed if you sign first before you find out earlier. I think Inti may have done this to IGA: He was trying to be nice and let them work on CotM after kicking them off the main game, but thought they would be cool with non-DRM games. So he gave them the publishing rights to CotM, but they didn't tell him they weren't OK with GoG and other non-GoG options, and by the time he found out it was too late. So I think you could say he should have been more careful, and probably never should have gone with inti AT ALL and just started with Monobit and Dico, but Inti seems like they fooled him and made themselves to be more competent and honest (at least in terms of publishing games, they seem to be good 2D devs) than they were. To give my own perspective on this, I don't think it was anything quite so devious or dramatic. - I don't think the 8-bit mini game would happen without Inti. Iga wasn't being nice and giving them a consolation prize of allowing them to do it, if you ask me - that's their thing, they're clearly very strong at it. ArtPlay DICO even if they wanted to wouldn't have the time to tackle this, and there aren't many out there who could do it better
- At the time of the stretch goal for the mini-game being conceived, they were extremely pressed to come up with whatever they could think of and hammer out - this thing hit pretty late at 4.5 m. They were scrambling and getting short on ideas I think haha, with the next goal right after this being the game on portables and only one after that iirc (Boss Revenge)? It was likely overlooked or just forgotten to confirm/deconfirm that doing the mini-game for "PC + consoles + portables" included GoG under the PC bit. They were inundated with literally a thousand other things at the time and trying not to die, busy for the years that followed and Inti's own programming of CotM didn't even apparently start until fall 2017 lol.
- To put it more bluntly, quite possibly an oversight by all parties. I know I personally didn't think about it. I even selected GoG as my platform and didn't think twice, like "huh, oh I guess it would be too? Huh, ok sure".
DRM is mostly as Scars said, but I've thought about posting that myself Redogan haha. I think the piracy thing is the real reason for a lot of people and purposely downplayed publicly when they really just want to steal things, but it's hard to know, considering yeah being able to fully play video games offline indefinitely without someone over your shoulder is a plus. It makes the vehement anti-ness towards Steam not much less confusing though. Like, to the point of not even wanting to play the games at all. Is that a show to prove a point/evoke the change they want? Quite possibly, who knows.
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Post by Redogan on Jun 11, 2018 19:29:54 GMT -6
Redogan I don't have much time since I have to go to work, but in essence, DRM-free is a principle thing for some people like FOSS is for a lot of Linux users. As for utility, there's certainly more to it than piracy. The most notable scenarios where DRM gets in the way are in long term game preservation and in circumstances where one does not have access to the Internet. In the former case, with DRM present, the only way to preserve a game is piracy, which shouldn't be the case in order to preserve what is becoming an increasingly large part of our culture. Some publishers eventually remove DRM on their own, but not all do, and those game will eventually become unplayable. The latter scenario may seem inconsequential, but as someone who had to wait 7 months to get Internet access installed after moving to a new apartment before, let me tell you that DRM sucks when you have no way of navigating it. And people in the military deploy to locations where they have no Internet access all the time. They still need something to do in their down time. OK. I can see where lack of Internet access is a problem with verifying licenses and the need to be able to play at times when there is no access available.
(Regarding FOSS, some people refuse to use any proprietary drivers that would "taint" the kernel, so I'm familiar with not using software on principality. Unfortunately, a lot of PC hardware out there will simply not work without the proprietary drivers. I'm looking at you soft-modems and software-based wifi modules.....also, AIO printer drivers.)
With regard to game preservation, I guess I can see emulating games on modern hardware as a way to play when older hardware (that can't be replaced) fails.
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Post by Busterific on Jun 11, 2018 23:02:44 GMT -6
There have also been a few instances that I've heard of where specific DRMs have been resource hogs that show down the games on the systems that they're on, or have outright had malware included in them which tends to be something that comes up against them in general as well.
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Post by xs8b on Jun 12, 2018 22:40:29 GMT -6
Foss is different things to different people. At it's heart is the idea that you should have the ability to make decisions about what is running on hardware that you own. Having said that, I have serious doubts about a conspiracy of people using open source ideology as an excuse to "steal things." (The majority of the people here paid for the game a couple of years ago!) This has nothing at all to do with whether you should pay for games or software.
DRM is something different entirely. The ideological aspect is far beyond the scope of this thread, but there are practical implications. DRM has never been effective against piracy but can be a real problem for people who want to run the game on an older pc or on certain flavours of Linux. Or maybe someone has a problem with the steam platform in general. Nothing about this is a problem for me, I choose Steam as a platform, but the point remains that gog and drm-free were part of the kickstarter.
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Post by DSLevantine on Jun 16, 2018 18:40:15 GMT -6
Can someone please explain to me why having to launch Steam in order to play is that bad? Because I don't see it. I understand what DRM is. Whether you paid for CotM or not, you need to have a license to play the title. If you don't have a license for it, then you shouldn't be playing it IMO. Steam is just a way to verify that you have the right to play the game. Gaming in 2018 is not like gaming in the 80's and 90's. (I know...I was there.) You can't just let your friends borrow your games to play for a couple of months and then have them returned to you. Without having more information on the "why" of this thread, I have to assume that wanting a DRM-free version of the game is just to pirate it (copy it out to all your friends) in some way. I'm not trying to piss off anyone with this post. Rather, I just don't understand the logic behind DRM-free. TC clearly wants to play the game on PC. So, why not sign up for an account with Steam (costs nothing), download and play? Is it an issue with the principle of the thing? Microsoft and Apple force your hand in the same way. Every copy of the Windows OS has to have a license. Same with Mac OS. So, unless you are using Linux (objectively superior for this and other reasons), you are going to be bound by DRM anyway. Am I wrong here? TC is not making sense to me. This whole thread (accusations of lying, threats of legal action, etc) doesn't make sense to me. Someone enlighten me. You are not making sense here. You don't see it because you refuse to acknowledge it. I never want steam copy, I want to play my game without interference from steam, I disagree with your opinion entirely. Gaming in 2018 0r 2028 doesn't matter, I never agree with steam. If you think DRM free is just to pirate, then you are misinformed. DRM free means there is nothing to be cracked, only steam version is cracked. To think that the pirates have the "drm free" premium version without paying and a paying customer like me stuck with the lousy drm version, I am definitely not happy with this. I made it very clear from the start, if they want to have drm, they can have it but I wont support them.
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Post by DSLevantine on Jun 16, 2018 18:44:07 GMT -6
DSLevantine I can understand how you feel, and IGA is responsible in the sense of being the head of the project, but I also think he's not really to blame for the GoG debacle. The way it usually works in the business world is that you sign a contract with someone and need to be held to it afterwards--if they put in nasty conditions or anything like that, you're screwed if you sign first before you find out earlier. I think Inti may have done this to IGA: He was trying to be nice and let them work on CotM after kicking them off the main game, but thought they would be cool with non-DRM games. So he gave them the publishing rights to CotM, but they didn't tell him they weren't OK with GoG and other non-GoG options, and by the time he found out it was too late. So I think you could say he should have been more careful, and probably never should have gone with inti AT ALL and just started with Monobit and Dico, but Inti seems like they fooled him and made themselves to be more competent and honest (at least in terms of publishing games, they seem to be good 2D devs) than they were. To give my own perspective on this, I don't think it was anything quite so devious or dramatic. - I don't think the 8-bit mini game would happen without Inti. Iga wasn't being nice and giving them a consolation prize of allowing them to do it, if you ask me - that's their thing, they're clearly very strong at it. ArtPlay DICO even if they wanted to wouldn't have the time to tackle this, and there aren't many out there who could do it better
- At the time of the stretch goal for the mini-game being conceived, they were extremely pressed to come up with whatever they could think of and hammer out - this thing hit pretty late at 4.5 m. They were scrambling and getting short on ideas I think haha, with the next goal right after this being the game on portables and only one after that iirc (Boss Revenge)? It was likely overlooked or just forgotten to confirm/deconfirm that doing the mini-game for "PC + consoles + portables" included GoG under the PC bit. They were inundated with literally a thousand other things at the time and trying not to die, busy for the years that followed and Inti's own programming of CotM didn't even apparently start until fall 2017 lol.
- To put it more bluntly, quite possibly an oversight by all parties. I know I personally didn't think about it. I even selected GoG as my platform and didn't think twice, like "huh, oh I guess it would be too? Huh, ok sure".
DRM is mostly as Scars said, but I've thought about posting that myself Redogan haha. I think the piracy thing is the real reason for a lot of people and purposely downplayed publicly when they really just want to steal things, but it's hard to know, considering yeah being able to fully play video games offline indefinitely without someone over your shoulder is a plus. It makes the vehement anti-ness towards Steam not much less confusing though. Like, to the point of not even wanting to play the games at all. Is that a show to prove a point/evoke the change they want? Quite possibly, who knows. You gave too much credit to Inti. I would rather have my cash back than dealing with the DRM.
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Post by Time 4 Tea on Jun 20, 2018 8:01:55 GMT -6
RedoganAlthough this is a unique situation, here's why no DRM is great: I used to work at a remote camp for a construction firm for three weeks at a time. While we did have electricity and a basic phone network, internet access was on a strict need-to-use basis due to excessive bandwidth costs. I imagine remote military bases must have similar restrictions. Trust me when I say that Steam's offline mode will allow you to play a game once or twice offline but you WILL get locked out after your third or forth attempt rendering your game (and account) suspended until you can log in again. With GOG or other DRM free options, you could play literally anywhere on Earth as often as you want without these issues. Had the Bloodstained Kickstarter not offered a GOG option, I would not have backed it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 9:12:11 GMT -6
#DSLevantine
Inti-Creates, some time ago, openly bashed DRM-Free feature, by stating publicly their belief: "DRM-Free hurts sales and makes pirating a game easier". They didn't lie, though, they did something worse... They told backers nothing from the beginning, about their plan/intent, to never release a DRM-Free version, because they lacked the spine and the backbone, to go up against backers' popular demand (after all, backers asked for a DRM-Free version of the entire project, early during the funding campaign)... Effectively spitting in their face and betraying their trust. They caused problems even to Fangamer service, which also wasn't informed about this a$$pull stunt; hence the GOG: Region Free, DRM-Free, Early Access option, for Curse of the Moon, until few days before release and the entire incident around it occuring.
People funding a product on Kickstarter are like investors, taking risks, paying ahead and upfront, setting some lines for the final product's features/state. Those who backed up in order to have the entire package DRM-Free, in their platform of choice, were screwed. I personally don't like much, the very same people to whom i put my trust and good faith into and felt the NEED to SUPPORT their work, to cheat on me (or pull off nasty pranks, if you will), moments before release, at that. Unlike other companies, they don't value, they don't respect, they don't listen to, their customers and fans.
I never buy a product myself, unless it is DRM-Free and NOT bound to any client; going so far as to reject even free codes. It's their loss, but still a real waste, though, since i would gladly buy it full-price even, at a DRM-Free store/distributor, without second thought. Inti-Creates could even consider offering it at GOG connect service (to make amends and people happy again), which gives you a free GOG copy, of a game you already own at Steam, by linking accounts. But no, they still insist that DRM-Free is bad, preferring to disappoint and anger even, the DRM-Free gamers.
Yes, you can have a version of it that runs outside Steam, but i am not allowed to say anything more, concerning. Only one sentence: "Give them a taste of their own medicine". Besides, you participated as a backer, so you are legally entitled to own a free copy of that DRM-Infested/Client-Bound scam, with DRM removed, naturally.
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Post by Jango on Jun 26, 2018 1:10:15 GMT -6
Liars, a$$pulls, Iga throwing Inti a bone with CotM... there's a lot of weird conjecture and entitlement in this thread.
You guys should relax and play a videogame. Like Bloodstained:Curse of the Moon. It turned out super great. So good that I ended up buying it on multiple devices in addition to my backer copy. Quality isn't an aspect of the game mentioned in this thread much but it's still an important one.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2018 1:26:48 GMT -6
Liars, a$$pulls, Iga throwing Inti a bone with CotM... there's a lot of weird conjecture and entitlement in this thread. You guys should relax and play a videogame. Like Bloodstained:Curse of the Moon. It turned out super great. So good that I ended up buying it on multiple devices in addition to my backer copy. Quality isn't an aspect of the game mentioned in this thread much but it's still an important one. Yes, from what i have seen, CotM is a great game, especially for its budget and status (spin-off, minigame). That, though, is irrelevant. There is a part of gamers out there, a group if you will, that never buy anything, unless it is Hassle-Free (Drm-Free, not bound to client, no intrusive software behind it, etc). Not even accepting free codes. Shafting said gamers and causing that problem before to the entire Fangamer service, just because they were afraid to come out of their closet of DRM-worship and because they understood the risk/liability of disappointing part of the backers from the start all too well, in my books, is called opportunism, speculation; cowardice, in one word. Me and others, don't take well such cr_p. We also vote with our wallet and buy games with principle. There is a ton of games over at Steam/Origin/Uplay/etc, real masterpieces; we skip it all, until they become available at DRM-Free stores. Real shame, real waste, real mood-killer... It would make a killing and instantly become a classic, over at G(ood) O(ld) G(ames). Everybody would also appreciate Inti-Creates too, then.
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Post by Jango on Jun 26, 2018 1:59:13 GMT -6
"...come out of their closet of DRM-worship"
It's statements like that that make you sound less like a credible source of criticism or someone who genuinely cares about good games getting into players' hands as objectively fair as possible and more like someone with a personal and political platform to push.
DRM-free-or-nothing is a fine philosophy to hold but it not being shared by Inti doesn't make them the crude slights you've accused them of. And furthermore your petty name calling undermines those who share your stance reasonably and respectfully.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2018 7:50:38 GMT -6
"...come out of their closet of DRM-worship" It's statements like that that make you sound less like a credible source of criticism or someone who genuinely cares about good games getting into players' hands as objectively fair as possible and more like someone with a personal and political platform to push. DRM-free-or-nothing is a fine philosophy to hold but it not being shared by Inti doesn't make them the crude slights you've accused them of. And furthermore your petty name calling undermines those who share your stance reasonably and respectfully. I am sorry for the words i chose. I rarely resort to edgy language, especially since i had always been extremely enthusiastic about this project. But Inti-Creates were very specific before, when stating those beliefs of theirs ("DRM helps protect sales and against piracy"). This exact statement of theirs, to begin with, was a great insult to DRM-Free gamers, in two fronts: 1) We buy our games, we don't steal, this features doesn't change piracy rates or sales numbers 2) We backed this project up. Their statement was literally a spit in our face and an ugly "repayment", for our "partnership" (us backing the project, like everybody else). Also, since the main game is going to have a DRM-Free release, why not this mini-game, too? What's stopping them? Do they enjoy causing inconvenience to somebody, forcing them to split game-libraries across services? They are pro-DRM on principle, exactly how part of gamers are against DRM on principle... But we already paid upfront from the beginning and they changed platform availability, down the road... Or to be precise, announced their plans concerning PC release, few days before it happened. Instead of an apology, indirectly insulting DRM-Free gamers at that, too. Fangamer had the decency to do that, even though it was inconvenienced/encumbered like us, too. I don't like indirect methods, rude statements, feints (will avoid using the word a$$pull, since it made you upset) and cheap tricks. From the beginning, i came here for the DRM-Free package. There are many ways they can still compensate all sides equally, easily at that, too; 1) Offer Curse of the Moon through GOG-Connect service 2) Put a DRM-Free version of Curse of the Moon, in Ritual of the Night's package, under "extras" category 3) Make a complete GOG release and enjoy both praise and bonus income, as well as honest apologies, by those who disapproved... But no, they hate the prospect of getting themselves unstuck from Steam's DRM and monopoly, that they won't listen to anybody. From what i understand, their contact team must have received, a number of emails already, asking for that... A few negative replies later and them choosing to ignore the bulk of those messages, they still refuse to cooperate. Worst of all, GOG says that Inti-Creates never even contacted them, in the first place! As i said, game seems to be of great quality, no arguing that. The policies of those who made it, though, their contacting (PR?) handling and marketing choices, is anything but.-
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Post by Nezuto on Jun 26, 2018 9:58:46 GMT -6
Ok, so....everyone seems to have always been fully aware that Inti is pro DRM and has been.....then why is it such a surprise that they made CotM with DRM? Iirc, CotM was pretty much entirely Inti's project from the start, after everything got taken in by 505, so everyone was aware of it for some time. Again, how can anyone be shocked at the game having DRM. It's like someone buying a lightsaber and wondering why it lights up really bright or throw a rock at a window and gasp in awe when it breaks said window. Yeah, DRM sucks, so does a vast amount of anything in this world and on the IoTs. If CotM having it is that much of an issue, just don't support the spin-off and wait for the main stuff that Inti has 0 part of. If they have been, knowingly, set in their DRM ways for so long, I highly doubt they'd care to listen to complaints about it now. Also, Inti doesn't read these forums, afaik, so kinda preaching to the
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 26, 2018 10:30:04 GMT -6
Nezuto We were aware that Inti was developing the game since 505 and DICO came on board, but I don't recall any announcement that they were also publishing the game until things started going awry.
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Post by Nezuto on Jun 26, 2018 22:43:08 GMT -6
Still stand by what I said. If DRM in a game is such an issue, don't play it, boycott the company, etc., because complaining about it on a forum that Inti doesn't even frequent isn't going to change anything. Not defending DRM, I hate it, as well, but the.....'discussion' seems to just be going in rabble rabble rabble circles at this point and isn't conducive to actually changing anything other than the main game having a stronger push to not have it.
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 27, 2018 0:33:37 GMT -6
There are probably ways to cut the connection between steam and the game, but I have myself no clue.
Drm-free is a broken promise only because the Kickstarter info couldn't be changed due to that site being difficult to maintain and locked shortly after or during the campaign. The drm-free info along with date and some other things are and was just placeholders.
Many promises have been made however, and if you wanna blame someone about it not being drm-free, take it up with Inti Creates who made the game. Koji have less to do with it except assets and level design.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2018 6:13:46 GMT -6
There are probably ways to cut the connection between steam and the game, but I have myself no clue. Cracking it (not advised, because "rules"). For which there wouldn't be any need in the first place, had this game had a DRM-Free release. The last laugh and the real irony in this case, though, is that DRM not only doesn't protect a game from piracy, but on the contrary, it hinders paying customers so much that forces their hand, instead (not excused, because "rules"). Also, about IGA and his work, i have the utmost respect and gratitude (and obviously, i already know he had little to do with CotM, i usually read updates regularly and on time, mostly). That is the one and only reason, i regret thinking about demanding a refund, before. Main reason i came here (boss IGA), to begin with. And Michiru. She is my favorite video game composer. At least i rest assured that my money were really well spent and ended up to the right hands, including the rest of the team (and excluding Inti-Creates).
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Post by XombieMike on Jun 27, 2018 6:45:38 GMT -6
In case people didn't see the new rule:
-Discussing piracy in the sense of advocating for it, linking or telling people how to do it, etc. is not permitted.
So, please lets not talk about cracking Curse here.
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