Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 4, 2017 1:50:36 GMT -6
The community has spoken at several threads, about something that most of us really dislike at Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night, regarding the second Demo. The blueish color of Dullahammer Familiar and of Summon Shards. This thread is to voice out our opinion to the DEV team and also to give suggestions on how to improve that. THE PROBLEM
At Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night E3 2017 Demo, and at various showcase videos, we were presented to new enemies, scenarios and shards. One thing that stick out for most of the community, was a weird pattern regarding two specific kinds of Shards. Familiar Shards and Summon Shards, that are a sub-type of Trigger Shards.
DULLAHAMMER HEAD
The Familiar Dullahammer Head
Dullahammer Head is the first Familiar that was presented at Bloodstained. It seems to emulate Medusa Heads as a enemy and when Miriam obtains it as a Familiar Shard, it looks like a crystalized blue version of itself. That, in particular, wouldn't be so bad, although most community agree that it would look much better if it was the actual graphics of Dullhammaer Head, with a pallete swap or something of the sort. Even so, Dullahammer Head could even look like it looks now, if weren't for a pattern that some people noticed, explained below. SUMMON SHARDS
The Trigger Shard (Summon Shard) Ape
The Trigger Shard (Summon Shard) Gieremund At some other videos, we can see some new Shards, that are specific to a kind of sub-type of Trigger Shards, the Summon Shards. We were presented to Gieremund's Shard and Ape's Shard and both of them are Summon Shards. Shards where you summon demons to attack enemies. And they are both at the exact same color of Dullahammer head. Crystalized Blue. That made some of the community conclude that this will really be a pattern. All Familiars and Summon Shards would be represented as crystalized blue demons. Amy, from 2016 Demo, was different: Cast Amy Shard. Amy shard (Cast Amy) from 2016 Demo was different. Amy was just a pallete swap version of itself. Although the name is different (Cast, instead of Summon, like Summon Ape) and we don't know if that has any meaning, since we also don't know how Gieremund's Shard is really called. (Summon, Cast, or something else).
CLOSING COMMENTS
This thread was made to voice out to the dev team the concerns regarding this matter, offer suggestions if time is still due to that and voice out the community's opinion on that matter. Some people were tagged below, in order to grab some of the most active members to voice out their concerns (if they have one) regarding that matter. I'm sorry if i forgot anyone. Too many members to remember.
tagged: Mana Enkeria crocodile Elfina Ashfield estebant CastleDan XombieMike purifyweirdshard fatihG Galamoth JeffCross Arcueid Brunestud Goobsausage
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 4, 2017 2:37:13 GMT -6
Thanks Pure Miriam glad it is consolidated here... here was my talking point from my thread; ...what do you guys think of haveing the ability to customize your familiars? like changing their color, maybe armor? (I know I suggested it once) or any of their characteristics. Maybe we could even get their DLC skins for certain familiars... I just personally don't want my familiars to be just... blue... This is of course sans intro... I am glad more people are concerned about this than I thought. here are some random fixes I thought up, hope some of these are at least considered: - The ability to change colors (through color wheel or RGB color picker) [I, of course, said this above]
- A complete palette swap... maybe to make it more angelic or more in line with stained glass
- A reverse color of the original enemy (eg real enemy blue, familiar red)
- A "halo" like color shining from behind the familiar, to distinguish it from the normal enemies... you familiar shines and glows... or something...
- Equippable armor, this is not really necessary anyways it is another collectible we can hunt for.
I personally like the ability to change the colors of the familiar... it will make us become a bit more attached to the summon... the same thing with armor or clothes that we could we could equip to our familiars. it will make use care about our familiar...
Sorry babbled enough lol
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jul 4, 2017 6:55:29 GMT -6
I actually dig the idea of the crystallized familiars/summons. They are after all a manifestation oh demonic crystal powers, so I think it makes sense. The crystal effects should just be more polished, and an option to decide the color of our crystal familiars would be neat.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 4, 2017 8:10:42 GMT -6
Yeah not a fan of it, I say a good change would be to have the enemy highlighted with a blue line but not their whole body being blue.
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Redogan
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Post by Redogan on Jul 4, 2017 9:01:33 GMT -6
I don't think they need to change it at all. The blue crystal effect that Summons/Familiars have is unique to Summons/Familiars. The player (or viewers) instantly know that they are seeing a Summon/Familiar. The blue crystal indicates that alchemy/magic was used to call forth the beast from an ethereal plane. I feel like if the Summon/Familiar used the same graphic as the real enemy (corporeal version), players would try to attack it by mistake. (I know I would.)
I like the idea of customizable colors for Summon/Familiar, but the crystalline effect (ethereal look) of the Summon/Familiar should stay the same, IMO.
If the same graphic IS to be used for the Summon/Familiar, maybe they could change the size of the Summon/Familiar to be larger than the enemy counterpart.
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Galamoth
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Post by Galamoth on Jul 4, 2017 9:27:39 GMT -6
As it is right now, I'm okay with it, and only because this obviously isn't the final game.
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Post by Enkeria on Jul 4, 2017 9:33:26 GMT -6
Familiars
Is this the name still for these? I remember it being something else!
I would like to see either.
A. Glow: Normal colored familiars, with a glow around it, perhaps leaving a faint trail where it has been.
B. New Color Palette: A different colored familiar that are fast in attacking (or whatever it will do) but stays very close to Miriam. The colors must be different on the part that would benifit it most to be seen as "another" tier of that "enemy" or whatnot.
Attacking Shards using previous enemies
I would like to see either.
A. Glow: Normal colored "previous foe" that now works for you, with a glow around it, perhaps leaving a faint trail where it has been.
B. New Color Palette: A different colored version of that foe we killed to become a helping hand for you when attacking or whatnot. The colors could be pretty different from the "original" enemy.
A. Glow?
If anything, Miriam use mostly the color blue, Johannes green and Gebel red. So what would I like to see in terms of glow? If an familiar is idle, it could be blue, when attacking it becomes red, while doing so, the trails will be purple from the blue to the red, back to blue. And when healing or aiding or are in "finding secrets, doors, breakable walls" they indicate this with green, a color of "helping".
If the glow would just stay blue around every familiar is still fine, I know animation are timeconsuming.
If Future DLC
If there is any DLC in the future, I hope there is "only" new colors and skins for the familiars, weapons and of Miriam herself. Perhaps even on other NPC-character. This rather than new areas, bosses and items. I think I also would accept new familiars (Goofball, ehm) as a DLC. These familiars would function like the others, or not. I don't know.
Shanoa?
I was a bit confused, did you write the right name? Or were you talking about the Meduas in the game with Shanoa?
Thanks for the topic
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Post by estebant on Jul 4, 2017 9:53:34 GMT -6
I figured familiars looked like that as a way to show your shard is weak. The more of the same shards you get, the more color it starts to show.
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 4, 2017 11:05:31 GMT -6
Some bits i wanna say: I LIKE IT AS IT IS / I DON'T LIKE IT AS IT IS
This is a matter of opinion. I brought that up because there was quite a lot of comment regarding that, so, i thought it would be a good idea to hear what the community has to say on this. It seemed at first that most people dislike it, but since it is mostly a personal opinion, voice them out. FAMILIAR / SUMMON / CAST
Yes Enkeria the Green Shard is called Familiar. It was "Familir' at 2016 DEMO but they confirmed it was a typo. If you look at the 2017 Menus, you will see that they are called Familiars. ALSO, the Shanoa mention there was a typo. Shanoa and Miriam look alike, and for some reason i typed Shanoa there I noticed that, while Ape Shard is called "Summon Ape", Amy Shard from 2016 DEMO is called "Cast Amy". Ape is blueish while Amy is a pallete swap of the enemy demon. There could be two reasons for that: 1) Could be just a adjustment from one demo to another, where all Summon type of Trigger Shards will NOW be called "Summon X". 2) Could be that "Casting" and "Summoning" are two different things, and that's why Ape (and Gieremund, if it's Shard name also be Summon Gieremund AND Dullhammaer Head, whose description is ALSO "Summon Dullahammer Head familiar) are all blueish, while Amy is a complete Pallete Swap of itself. IGA loves those small details, but i may be thinking to much here. SUGGESTIONS
i like both the customize Familiars idea (although i'm sure that would require time and resources), the glowing idea and the Pallete Swap idea (that, for me, it is the easiest and best one to implement).
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Post by crocodile on Jul 4, 2017 11:05:36 GMT -6
When the shard flies out of the defeated enemy they are Green (Dullahead Familiar) and Red (Summon Ape) respectively (now that I've double checked after previous errors were called to my attention). I therefore I feel it probably makes sense for your familiars to be Green (as they are now) and the summons that are actually Trigger shards to be Red. Aside from that I don't think that much needs to be changed or added. I'm not sure if there is going to be a leveling up system or not but I don't think a degree of customization so deep you can pick the colors of your familiars or what not is needed. Seems a bit like a waste of time/resources unless there is a HUGE demand for minor features like that. As an aside, are there multiple types or tiers of familiars? Will the Knight Familiar we voted for in the Kickstarter campaign be the same sort of familiar you acquire from an enemy or will they be special in their own way (maybe you get them from a card or they are special shards found in the castle)? Given how much detail was given to those familiars and their colors and what not, I didn't expect them to be represented by monocolor crystalline forms. I recall the Knight had a pretty intricate design with like a dark portal and all that cool jazz. A lot of those details would be lost as a crystal familiar. EDIT: Mixed up shard colors and types so I made some corrections
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 4, 2017 11:10:13 GMT -6
crocodile No no, the colors are: TRIGGER SHARD (RED), EFECTIVE SHARD (BLUE), DIRECTIONAL SHARD (PURPLE), ENCHANT SHARD (YELLOW) , FAMILIAR SHARD (GREEN) and the new one revealed on the E3 2017 Demo, SKILL SHARD (WHITE). We didn't saw a single EFFECTIVE SHARD yet, we don't even know what command it is to use them and how they will work. The "Summon / Cast" Shards are inside the Trigger Shard category, as far as we know (Ape and Amy for sure, Gieremund is unknown, but the way the player uses it really looks like it is from Trigger too). They aren't a type, i just said that they LOOK like a "sub-type" since they seem to have the same functions. And yes, the shards will be able to be leveled. They even have "rank" and such at the menu and Mana confirmed sometime ago, that the Shards can be leveled by obtaining more of them, but the exact mechanics are still in development, it seems.
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Ancient Legion
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Post by Galamoth on Jul 4, 2017 11:12:47 GMT -6
That said, I'm sure Familiars (and even "summoned" Trigger Shard creatures) will end up more detailed. Especially, as crocodile already mentioned, when we consider the 'Cool' Knight Familiar from the poll for the Kickstarter campaign.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 4, 2017 11:13:53 GMT -6
The problem is that it's boring and lacks variety. When you have 15 summons and they all glow this blue it really kinda kills the enjoyment of getting a new type. Not sure if this is only because they haven't finalized the looks of this stuff yet, but I hope that's the reason. A blue glowing monkey, a blue glowing horse. There's ways to make things stand out and make it obvious you're summoning something without completely sacrificing the textures/color of the creatures you're summoning. As I said you can HIGHLIGHT around the enemy with a blue line. In other words - See the purple aura around Soma? It completely surrounds him but doesn't distort his visuals. That would be a better approach if you HAVE to make it obvious it's a summon. All I have to say is imagine this familiar was just a blue glowing thing instead of being able to see all this great detail and color. It would kill the uniqueness of each design - Picking colors for summons is not needed, but the summons having their actual look and textures? It seems like an obvious thing that should be there.
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Elfina Ashfield
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Post by Elfina Ashfield on Jul 4, 2017 20:26:02 GMT -6
I'm okay with Dullahammer's head being a float blue crystal, but I do prefer palette swapping on its look. But I don't like the idea of trigger shard type familiar (apes and others) using the same color as familiar shard (Dullahammer's head). Four or five apes on the same screen with the same blue crystallized look would be very distracting IMO, after seeing Pure Miriam's screenshot above.
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fatihG
Devil Forgemaster
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Post by fatihG on Jul 4, 2017 20:51:04 GMT -6
I am personally fine with the crystallised look, however i feel like simply making all familiars/summons blue is super lazy and I am not a big fan of it aesthetically. Made a quick image with some ideas from this topic mixed with some of my own. Personally i feel like if they go with the original colours + crystal effect + magic outline, that'd be best. (CA) Original - ... the original creature. PA - Palette swapped version of the original creature. PB - Original palette, however it has a magic outline. PC - Palette swap + magic outline. CA - Original colours, Crystal effect + magic outline. CB - Original colours, Crystal effect, no outline. CC - Original colours, Crystal effect, default outline. CD - Palette swap + Crystal effect, Magic outline. CE - Original colours, crsytal effect + white outlines. There are so many possibilities here, for example crystal + pallete swap without the outlines, with the black outlines, white outlines etc. etc.
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Post by Elfina Ashfield on Jul 4, 2017 20:57:22 GMT -6
There are so many possibilities here, for example crystal + pallete swap without the outlines, with the black outlines, white outlines etc. etc. Crystal + Palette swapping + no / black outline would be my personal choice
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 4, 2017 21:07:40 GMT -6
I am personally fine with the crystallised look, however i feel like simply making all familiars/summons blue is super lazy and I am not a big fan of it aesthetically. Made a quick image with some ideas from this topic mixed with some of my own. Personally i feel like if they go with the original colours + crystal effect + magic outline, that'd be best. (CA) Original - ... the original creature. PA - Palette swapped version of the original creature. PB - Original palette, however it has a magic outline. PC - Palette swap + magic outline. CA - Original colours, Crystal effect + magic outline. CB - Original colours, Crystal effect, no outline. CC - Original colours, Crystal effect, default outline. CD - Palette swap + Crystal effect, Magic outline. CE - Original colours, crsytal effect + white outlines. There are so many possibilities here, for example crystal + pallete swap without the outlines, with the black outlines, white outlines etc. etc. while a palette swap is my preferred choice and I'm still confused as to why that isn't happening, but your image shows the outline idea could work way better
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 5, 2017 1:43:45 GMT -6
Considering your great work fatihG i agree with CastleDan. I think palletw swap, for both Summoning Trigger Shards and Familiars, would work best. You can see the details of the demon and still using the demon as your own thing. It happened in almost all Igavanias with familiars based on Demons. Now, talking about Familiars as a whole, sside from Curse of Darkness, whose game system was completely focused on Familiars, for me, the best approach to familiars, both visually and gamepla-wise was Dawn of Sorrow. On Dawn of Sorrow, Familiars had different behaviours. Not all of them simply floated around. You had familiars locked at Soma, like Alura Une (a naked woman plant) that wrapped herself around him with tentacles all around hitting enemies. You had familiars that completely change their looks by leveling, like Mini Devil (turning from a small devil to a female devil throwing hearts at enemies) and so on. And all of them were just pallete swap versions of their original enemies. It could be a crystalized pallete version (like Original colours, crsytal effect + white outlines of fatihG's art).
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jul 5, 2017 1:47:20 GMT -6
fatihG that crystalized effect looks wicked. They should take inspiration from you haha
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Enkeria
Silver in the Dark
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Post by Enkeria on Jul 5, 2017 7:45:54 GMT -6
Add a poll on this maybe? I would like to cast my vote on the images (and do not forget to include the "keep as is" (blue familiar)).
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