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Post by nekurors on Jun 18, 2017 20:28:37 GMT -6
I know most igavanias aren't really linear, you can choose where to go to some extend, but i was thinking if we could increase that freedom further. The game is usually separated in areas, like the Chapel, Colosseum , Library and so on, usually the game is designed in a way you must access all of the areas to get something needed to advance further and that logic is kind of linear. Yes, i know in SOTN there is optional places and different bosses routes, but that's not the case for all igavanias and still somehow limited, i guess SOTN is very liberal in that sense of order and choices of the next place to go.
So i was thinking on certain design features the game could use:
1. Whole areas completely optional, usually for get new gear and/or get items needed to discover secrets and extra stuff, not needed to the core gameplay, can also features optional bosses.
2. Make areas to split in 2 or more exits, for example to get out of a certain area you must choose a path and on the end of it there will be a boss battle. 2.1. It could be a choice between two different bosses or an innovation where it is the same boss but in a different room, which would change it's attacks pattern and difficulty. 2.2. If it is two different bosses, the other boss room could be then locked from that side and be accessed only from the other side later (just for variation), also in that case since it would be defeated only later it's difficulty could be adjusted according (or not).
3. When you get new abilities to pass certain obstacles, give the option to choose between different paths (i guess that is the most common feature regarding this issue), the point is that either place you choose to go it must "matters", not just some few rooms.
4. Maybe some secret shortcuts could be fun, as an extra feature for more experienced players and hard to find. Let's say you find out you could break a particular ceiling, then in the secret room there is a chest or something to distract you that it's the only thing there, however there is some mysterious mechanism/object in the room that looks just weird in the middleground but you can actually activate it using a specific power/item which would open a new secret passage, a long one that would get you to an advanced part of the game or something like that, in the other end it is just open, meaning once you get there through the usual route it would be a natural shortcut BACK (instead of forward), the purpose of that is just that you have that option at your disposition if you want that and it's not important at all, just some new special route specially designed for more observational players that otherwise would also be discovered later by casual players, however as a backtrack use instead. This is meant to be really hard to pullout and specific to advanced players which in the same way won't be out of reach for other kind of players that will be able to access it much easier later from the other side, just for fun.
So, what do you guys think and do you have any more suggestion regarding this matter?
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Yän
Herald of the Moon
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Post by Yän on Jun 18, 2017 20:48:55 GMT -6
Cool topic! I'd like to add that Circle of the Moon had the possibility to skip a portion of the game if you power through the poisoned water in the water area. Something like this would be interesting. Order of Ecclesia had a part of the game where you needed to collect some stuff to open a gate and you could choose where to go first (fight Death or Eligor). The Lecarde Chronicles 2 had many times when it was not absolutely clear which part of the castle to go to first. Sometimes bosses could be beaten in various orders. There was a lot of exploration-value in that. Dawn of Sorrow had an optional area under the Lab and Village which could be used as a shortcut late in the game. Then there are entire optional arena-like areas in Portrait of Ruin, Circle of the Moon, Order of Ecclesia and Curse of Darkness. Also let's not forget the secret area in Aria of Sorrow where you could find Claimh Solias. You could only reach this area by solving a riddle (something with souls...). Harmony of Dissonance really felt like it opened up towards the end of the game. Lots of optional stuff in there with its dual-castle-design. These are just some examples that I found pretty neat and I'd certainly enjoy something like this in Bloodstained.
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jun 19, 2017 10:01:38 GMT -6
One or more optional areas, maybe tough areas with unique enemies and valuable trasures is always a great idea to me. Maybe even hard to find areas, that will require some sort of puzzle to be entered (like the Forbidden Area in Aria of Sorrow as Yän said, too bad that wasn't a full fledged area but the way you had to get inside and the mystery surrounding it were ingenious). To me, they should be full fledged areas, with a good deal of exploration and tough challenges. "Arenas" like the Large Cavern in Ecclesia or the coliseum in Circle of the Moon are fine, but they totally lack environmental variety and exploration, so I'd prefer "complete" areas. In regards of the multiple paths, it's a neat idea but IMO they should be limited, because: 1 - if at one point you can choose to do area 1, 2, 3 or 4 first, this usually means that the four should be of similar difficulty. Lament of Innocence could do this because there are no RPG elements in that game, but in Bloodstained we have level ups and that sort of thing, so I feel like it would be difficult to balance a lot of areas that could be chosen at the same point of the game. Maybe this would be cool if we had something like a set of two areas in the first part of the game to explore in the order we choose and maybe another couple in the late game, as long as: 2 - you don't get completely lost. That IMO kills the pacing, and in general it's never been a thing in IGAvanias, while for example Metroid games would make you feel lost in an hostile planet. Also, the feeling of being lost can become very detrimental (I hated it in Axiom Verge, for example, when you got a new power you could use it in a million places and you had to be lucky to be able to continue in the story and not getting at some sort of collectible instead). Secret shortcuts are also fun, but they usually become obsolete if a warp system is present. Knowing IGA, there will probably be some sort of warp, so shortcuts could work if the warping system only came into place about halfway through the game (something like Dark Souls 1, many areas are interconnected because you can't warp, but once you get the Lordvessel to warp areas become more self contained).
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Enkeria
Silver in the Dark
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 19, 2017 17:31:23 GMT -6
How about after finished it, unlock 4 rooms, each with a portal to a random boss. If boss is already defeated when going there because of the route, there will be a minor reward. If we kill the boss, we get a better reward.
How about have a room with mist or thick fog that we can cross with minor issue, but coming back to it with a shard that actually pushes the fog away would reveal a passage down and up, which would already BE there because we just "walked" across it. Having the actual shard trigger it, or something.
How about an endless hole that lets us fall until we can pinpoint where we should land, after a few frames we would be back to the top in theory, but on the map it would seem like an infinite hole. There would also be some different rooms here, which would make us believe we actually missed out on the other rooms because of falling.
How about after finish the game, the whole game would be reversed in a matter of a mirror-way, making the start finish, and the finish the new start.
How about enter a room during daytime on our system have it day, and at night have it night.
How about making the boss-rooms the rooms we could actually teleport to after finish them for fast travel?
How about giving us short routes somewhere if we would skip saving out game, giving us the chance in speedruns?
How about have buttons in secret rooms across the map, doing "nothing" but actually reveal the next secret room, up until the last room would have treasure. This would mean we had a pattern and a reason to "go back" to try walls that never broke which could be broken that time around.
How about a maze that we need to learn, or it would reset us to the first room we enter. If learned correctly, the route would be smaller than the alternative route that would be the normal one.
And a dark room that needs light, or we die from shadows...
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Jun 19, 2017 18:39:24 GMT -6
If it were like an RPG of old where the only thing holding you back was whether or not you wanted to deal with super powerful enemies, then that could work. I think SOTN and some of the Fallout games were very good with this.
I think one method could be after beating a boss, a door opens or becomes more accessible. However, the boss also drops two keys which could open two different doors each serving as a different route to the ending. Since the castle seems to be alive in this game too and has the potential to change forms, this could work.
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Enkeria
Silver in the Dark
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 19, 2017 19:03:15 GMT -6
If it were like an RPG of old where the only thing holding you back was whether or not you wanted to deal with super powerful enemies, then that could work. I think SOTN and some of the Fallout games were very good with this. I think one method could be after beating a boss, a door opens or becomes more accessible. However, the boss also drops two keys which could open two different doors each serving as a different route to the ending. Since the castle seems to be alive in this game too and has the potential to change forms, this could work. In the first demo, you actually opens up a wall with the help of the environment (cannon fires) to get a shorter route. Many Igavanias have had a whole lot of things to destroy or fiddle with to get a passage closer and unlock routes. After beating a boss (or bosses) you eventually should find a way to actually unlock. It would also be cool to find a room with 3 locked doors and later on one key. Once the key have been used on one of these three rooms, those rooms or passages will remain as a mystery until you do another play through (or do a save before). What these rooms would behold is up for debate, I would love for some of the "backer rooms" here, or just a room or areas with a bit more enemies and xp boost of some kind. Perhaps each room also have a random faction attached to them, while not changing the actual location ir would perhaps change the enemies or the loot that you get. I think people would pull their hair off if the map wouldn't be 100%, but then again, these rooms could be the additional 0,x % that are added -or- we could actually find all the keys somewhere or as random drops, if so, then I would suggest the room with the locked locations would be very centered to be a gateway to cross faster into each direction. It would benefit if the teleportation-room were far off around the frame of the map, instead of having them spread out as much towards the center of the map. Just a thought or two, nothing more. Love to brainstorm.
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