Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Mar 25, 2017 8:17:24 GMT -6
After the great discussions that showed up in my first thread about this theme ( here) i decided that it would be interesting to go deeper on that. More details that matters a LOT, and we should discuss, while new updates aren't showing up. 1) COPY AND PASTE ENVIROMENTS
Repetition of levels/environments, either in part or whole. This is not always a bad thing, it can make the game longer, and sometimes, it is the only way, given the resources, to make a game longer. A good example is Portrait of Ruin, where you play at a castle and can enter in magical portraits that transports you to other maps with specific themes based on their paintings. After finishing the whole castle and the main portraits, the player discovers four new portraits that are just copy and paste enviroments, with altered colors and layouts, of the main four ones. And they are still fun. Symphony of the Night did the same, duplicating a whole castle, changing it's layout by reversing it, it's colors and overall looks to extend the game. Sometimes, you just can't make a game longer without doing that. What do you think? Bloodstained: Ritual of the night should have copy and paste enviroments if that, resources-wise, is the only way to make the game longer (to match the 1600+ rooms castle IGA promised, for instance). Or it is better if the game is smaller, but with more unique enviroments overall?
2) HARD LOCKS VS SOFT LOCKS
"Lock" is a common game-wise term, about progression, specially in Igavania-type games. You play until you reach an area that you cannot traverse at all. You need an ability to proceed. That is a lock. Hard Lock is when it is 100% impossible (without glitches) to traverse the area. Or you have the required ability, or you simply can't go further. Soft lock is when, although hard, it is possible to traverse the area without the required ability. This can be designed to be this way, to reward creative players, or can be a design flaw (and that we call sequence breaking. In 99% of time, sequence breaking is not intended). Igavania-esque games always had both hard locks and soft locks. Some players prefers soft locks over hard locks, to reward creative gameplay. While others prefers hard locks, to make a game more "linear" and with a more definite pattern. What do you think? Bloodstained: Ritual of the night should have more hard locks, or more soft locks? 3) BACKTRACKING
All Igavania-esque games have backtracking, of course. But that can be both required, optional, and it can be minimal or really prevalent. Symphony of the Night had a lot of mandatory backtracking, you always needed to go back in forth in search for abilities and itens to proceed, while Lament of Innocence had almost 100% of backtracking being mostly optional. You could really play the game in a very linear way, if you want too, with most backtracking being for power ups. What do you think? Bloodstained: Ritual of the night should be loaded with mandatory backtracking, or most of it should be optional? 4) DEGRADED BOSS
A boss who, after being defeated, returns later in the game, not as a boss, but as a regular enemy instead (sometimes more than one appearing at once). For some, all bosses should be unique, to make the fight against them rewarding. But sometimes, making degraded boss opens rooms for more enemies by overusing it. What do you think? Bloodstained: Ritual of the night should have degraded bosses, or all bosses should be unique? That's all folks! |
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Post by Yän on Mar 25, 2017 15:45:17 GMT -6
1. I don't mind reused assets throughout the game - if done well this can enhance the cohesive experience. If done badly / without variation this can however become too obvious and boring. However, since they're using Unreal's procedural capabilities, I don't believe that the reused Assets will look too repetitive. I'm working on a project in Unreal right now in which I'm building the game world out of only 7 different models and I can still avoid a repetitive look by making good use of some of the tools of Unreal's material editor and Blueprint-Systems. I believe that their techniques to generate variations are more sophisticated than mine so I'm not too worried about a too repetitive look.
2. While it can make the game- and level design quite a bit harder I do think that cleverly designed possibilities to use sequence breaks can enhance the feeling of adventure and free choice. I like the Idea of creating super difficult sections that are made easier by using certain items or abilities. However, this can also lead to problems with the story since if there would be scripted events and story moments during the sequence-breakable part, they'd potentially have to tinker with branching storylines which can be cool but will also afford to create more content than you'll ever see in your first playthrough. Still, I think that there's a lot of untapped potential in this one and I'd be interested to see their take on it if they decided to go this route.
3. I never used backtracking as a dirty / negative word. To me that was always part of a free, nonlinear gameplay and part of the fun. Sometimes, going through levels from the other direction can make for some quite interesting situations due to the change of perspective. I'm thinking that there will still be warp rooms as always to minimize any backtracking that would get too tedious - so again I'm not worried about this at all.
4. To me, it was always an amazing moment just to sort of see how far I had come since I first struggled with a boss that I can now defeat in a few hits. It's often a fun touch of realization: "Wow, this gave me trouble earlier and now I'm so badass, I'm just mowing through these guys!". However, this can be taken a bit too far and we get something like Aria of Sorrow with very few original and memorable bosses (for the record, I love that game but the bosses weren't quite my favourite part about it). It also has to be noted that some of the most interesting bosses simply cannot reappear outside of their respective context. Examples of this include Order of Ecclesia's Brachyura or Eligor, Dawn of Sorrow's Paranoia or Gergoth (I know Gergoth was reused in PoR but to me the fight didn't have even half of its power without the falling-sequence.), basically all Legion-Bosses and also all Story-Bosses. In conclusion I'd say, keep it at a fair balance, don't overdo it and it will be a nice touch.
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Post by Enkeria on Mar 25, 2017 17:19:02 GMT -6
Started writing, everything went lost when internet died. Now I am personally back (So Part 2 here too, hehe). 1. I liked my idea of a mirror world. Having new atmosphere and puzzles, but using the environment once again for double playability. Can't find the thread I were putting the image on, which you can see again below. I also want to mention once again that the first world is a stained glass realm, the second being the "real world", and only viable if doing the right thing meeting Gebel for the first time, (or last in the first realm if done incorrectly).  2. I like combination of those two, balance it out. Hard Lock is what I would love to see with the new "familiars". You need them to unlock parts of your journey, so they ALL are used at one point. 3. If I must backtrack, I tend to find more useful things and expand my journey. I do not wanna rush, but if I must take the long route I am pretty sure there is less for me to miss out on, and that will actually add to my FIRST experience which will be the most important one. So backtrack is fine for me, if not.. I will rush through. 4. I remember bosses coming back as lesser demons. That felt cool the first encounter, but soon faded to a "cheap feel". I would rather see a BOSS coming back a second time, knowing it was a huge deal trying to finish that one off the first time, just to see it crushed by the REAL BOSS. That would be chaos and are always awesome. There is something like this in one of the games where a bat is squashed by a giant behind bars with one eye looking at you, You guys probably know which game and what boss I am talking about. That is creative for me, not using same enemies but change colors on it only. That feel cheaper. I am fine with it, I know it would save time and effort, but the experience is degraded if the bosses or enemies are. Thanks for the thread. |
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 25, 2017 18:20:17 GMT -6
I'm gonna respond to the things I care about most. Copy/Paste - I have no problem with repetition BUT there's a pretty big difference between the repetition of something like SOTN and something like Portrait of Ruin/Order of Ecclesia. When you get the same exact layout regurgitated but this time with different colors. That's not enough for me and it really makes it feel like quite the rush job and more like extra padding. The reason why the upside down castle worked for me personally is because the castle being upside down changes the complete FEEL of the layout. The layout no longer felt the same, your muscle memory is completely changed. The various different enemies and bosses only helped that. Also, as I've gone at length talking about, SOTN did a good job of putting enough unique areas and unique layout design to make areas with repetition in terms of backgrounds feel unique. Whenever an area started to feel samey they'd throw a unique area that and the platform layout within the samey rooms were laid out differently to again differentiate and help you remember it's a unique area. Backtracking - I 100% want full on backtracking but it's incredibly important that the above is done right for this to work. If we have a heavily copy and pasted location like Portrait's locations or much of latter DS Vania's than backtracking feels more like a chore. If the castle is well designed than backtracking will feel enjoyable. If Lament Of Innocence was heavily on backtracking the game would have been far worse to me because of the simple fact that the games layouts were INCREDIBLY copy/paste. Good topic Pure Miriam |
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Post by chocolatestain on Mar 25, 2017 19:31:38 GMT -6
Good thread. I am also itching for discussion since no update.
I like reused assets when modded. In older days sometimes a night time look was applied to existing graphics to give it new life. I wonder if Bloodstained will have day and night cycles or weather cycles. I'm thinking probably not, but there is opportunity there, especially with the procedural generation. It could be used to flash back or even flash forward for special scenes. Combining day or night lighting with procedural generation and you could add an entirely new experience in an area or scene.
For example, imagine one of the current castle screenshots like the one that looks like a partially outdoor courtyard with trees in the back. It could be modded for an earier phase where the trees would be smaller and the pillars and stone work looking brand new, or it could be a dismal future setting where the structure is aged and crumbled far beyond repair with the trees leafless and dry. Again, combine that with weather or lighting and a lot can be accomplished without creating 100% new assets.
Backtracking I'm okay with, especially with the flawless music. There will be places to teleport from, so backtracking won't get unbalanced either.
Degraded bosses are fun. I don't want every boss to be re-encountered out of their home area though. I wish there was an option to relive big bosses fights such Beelzebub, Galamoth and the Granfaloon in the same place they were first encountered though and I mean without having to exit the story mode and enter some boss rush or time trial mode. It's a thing I'd like to relive without starting a brand new game either.
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Post by zoned87 on Mar 25, 2017 22:08:40 GMT -6
I think its all about atmosphere a game like this should maintain a slightly creepy atmosphere so you are never really at ease, except maybe in a save room. There is no shame in re-using assets in fact in a game this large it is inevitable though its always nice to have a new surprise now and then. Degraded bosses I don't have an issue with though they should be higher end mobs if they are going to use them in that fashion.
I think optional and hidden items are a detail that matters, and we always need our baked chicken we found in the wall.
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Post by Yän on Mar 25, 2017 22:54:13 GMT -6
I'm gonna respond to the things I care about most. Copy/Paste - I have no problem with repetition BUT there's a pretty big difference between the repetition of something like SOTN and something like Portrait of Ruin/Order of Ecclesia. When you get the same exact layout regurgitated but this time with different colors. That's not enough for me and it really makes it feel like quite the rush job and more like extra padding. Just a quick question regarding this... could you fill me in on where PoR or OoE reused entire level layouts? I never noticed that. I know HoD did that because that was its "gimmick" but didn't PoR and OoE have completely new Layouts with reused and colourswapped assets? |
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Post by Kale on Mar 26, 2017 14:50:43 GMT -6
Soft lock all the way. Never actually hard this particular term before or hard lock for that matter, but the concept has been around for a good while.
Obviously hard locks should be there for the essential story stuff but as far as exploration goes, soft lock is where it's at. And the more creative the way to bypass it the better.
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Mar 26, 2017 15:45:01 GMT -6
Soft lock all the way. Never actually hard this particular term before or hard lock for that matter, but the concept has been around for a good while. Obviously hard locks should be there for the essential story stuff but as far as exploration goes, soft lock is where it's at. And the more creative the way to bypass it the better. Soft Lock Once you reached second "castle" or unlock a new mode? |
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Post by Kale on Mar 26, 2017 16:24:12 GMT -6
Just straight up soft lock unless it's a story reason.
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Post by DSLevantine on Mar 27, 2017 3:06:05 GMT -6
1. I don't mind, but i find it interesting, it reminds me of silent hill, the normal version and the "gory" version. Last but not least, I think the waypoints of POR is too far away, travelling between the maps is so tedious.
2. I don't like locks. I don't mind if there is a few soft locks, please keep hard locks at minimum.
3. I think it should be optional. The question is why make mandatory backtracking?
4. Reminds me of Legion -> Legion (corpse). Interesting
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Post by berenkaneda on Mar 27, 2017 5:58:38 GMT -6
One more idea. I would love the idea of a recurring Boss, like the Pursuer on DS2. A boss that appears more than once in the game like if its chasing you or even mentoring you, you fight it but just before you defeat it it goes away to fight you again at any moment. It could be a secret boss or to lead to a secret area if you defeat it every time.
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 27, 2017 9:50:04 GMT -6
I'm gonna respond to the things I care about most. Copy/Paste - I have no problem with repetition BUT there's a pretty big difference between the repetition of something like SOTN and something like Portrait of Ruin/Order of Ecclesia. When you get the same exact layout regurgitated but this time with different colors. That's not enough for me and it really makes it feel like quite the rush job and more like extra padding. Just a quick question regarding this... could you fill me in on where PoR or OoE reused entire level layouts? I never noticed that. I know HoD did that because that was its "gimmick" but didn't PoR and OoE have completely new Layouts with reused and colourswapped assets? Sure. It's not so much saying they've reused entire level layouts although you can point to locations like shown in the first post. Where it's a dreary forest but then later on you find a different outdoor area with a different look but it's essentially the same. Like this -  To me this is lazy. Some people might enjoy visual swaps but to me it feels like extra padding done to extend the game more. It's the exact problem I have with the later games. Some issues DO deal with layout other it's merely design. My post dealt more with the layouts and designs within locations. So compare say SOTN's castle entrance to OoE's. In SOTN the progression is like this - Outside area --> Zombie Hallway --> Merman room with cave --> Hallway -->Death Room with storm See how they give enough variation so that it doesn't feel too repetitive? Now with OoE Outside area-->Hallway-->Stairway room stacked onto another stairway room->Hallway--> Stairway room. See the pattern here? You have boxed rooms with the same design being repeated in different directions on top of each other connected by hallways. There's no design, it feels rushed...it turns a game that could be about exploration into something else entirely. It was less about designing a castle and more about fighting enemies in stages that are connected by hallways. My other point as to why the upside down castle works and why HoD's color swap second castle didn't was because putting the castle upside down changes the very feel of the layout ENTIRELY. So not only is there some visual differences and different enemies but the feel of traversing the castle has completely changed effectively making it feel new. That's genius imo. Color swapping a castle but literally going through it the same way is not the same and just feels like unneeded padding to me. |
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Mar 27, 2017 13:07:44 GMT -6
Just a quick question regarding this... could you fill me in on where PoR or OoE reused entire level layouts? I never noticed that. I know HoD did that because that was its "gimmick" but didn't PoR and OoE have completely new Layouts with reused and colourswapped assets? Sure. It's not so much saying they've reused entire level layouts although you can point to locations like shown in the first post. Where it's a dreary forest but then later on you find a different outdoor area with a different look but it's essentially the same. Like this - To me this is lazy. Some people might enjoy visual swaps but to me it feels like extra padding done to extend the game more. It's the exact problem I have with the later games. Some issues DO deal with layout other it's merely design. My post dealt more with the layouts and designs within locations. So compare say SOTN's castle entrance to OoE's. In SOTN the progression is like this - Outside area --> Zombie Hallway --> Merman room with cave --> Hallway -->Death Room with storm See how they give enough variation so that it doesn't feel too repetitive? Now with OoE Outside area-->Hallway-->Stairway room stacked onto another stairway room->Hallway--> Stairway room. See the pattern here? You have boxed rooms with the same design being repeated in different directions on top of each other connected by hallways. There's no design, it feels rushed...it turns a game that could be about exploration into something else entirely. It was less about designing a castle and more about fighting enemies in stages that are connected by hallways. My other point as to why the upside down castle works and why HoD's color swap second castle didn't was because putting the castle upside down changes the very feel of the layout ENTIRELY. So not only is there some visual differences and different enemies but the feel of traversing the castle has completely changed effectively making it feel new. That's genius imo. Color swapping a castle but literally going through it the same way is not the same and just feels like unneeded padding to me. Since IGA Now have time to actually make a good game, there might be minimum repetitive level designs if it doesn't take place in a big room or area (like say the ship in the E3 beta or across the harbour towards the castle if its close to a village), who knows if we may go through a forest and then a swamp before reaching the doorway? Also worth thinking about is that random engine that make some areas backdrop to change, if it would apply on the front end also, making the enemies do different stuff -or- having random enemies as a whole, those "long, same areas" would in a sense become different somewhat. I do however understand that changing colors and add mist or fog won't do much in terms of "spice things up". How about random generated front end things then? I don't even know if we will get that. Hidden traps, objects in the way and such. Oh and those secrets, might as well be random to some degree also not talking about hidden walls, but more about crates, statues, specific monster drops and such. |
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 27, 2017 13:26:29 GMT -6
Sure. It's not so much saying they've reused entire level layouts although you can point to locations like shown in the first post. Where it's a dreary forest but then later on you find a different outdoor area with a different look but it's essentially the same. Like this - To me this is lazy. Some people might enjoy visual swaps but to me it feels like extra padding done to extend the game more. It's the exact problem I have with the later games. Some issues DO deal with layout other it's merely design. My post dealt more with the layouts and designs within locations. So compare say SOTN's castle entrance to OoE's. In SOTN the progression is like this - Outside area --> Zombie Hallway --> Merman room with cave --> Hallway -->Death Room with storm See how they give enough variation so that it doesn't feel too repetitive? Now with OoE Outside area-->Hallway-->Stairway room stacked onto another stairway room->Hallway--> Stairway room. See the pattern here? You have boxed rooms with the same design being repeated in different directions on top of each other connected by hallways. There's no design, it feels rushed...it turns a game that could be about exploration into something else entirely. It was less about designing a castle and more about fighting enemies in stages that are connected by hallways. My other point as to why the upside down castle works and why HoD's color swap second castle didn't was because putting the castle upside down changes the very feel of the layout ENTIRELY. So not only is there some visual differences and different enemies but the feel of traversing the castle has completely changed effectively making it feel new. That's genius imo. Color swapping a castle but literally going through it the same way is not the same and just feels like unneeded padding to me. Since IGA Now have time to actually make a good game, there might be minimum repetitive level designs if it doesn't take place in a big room or area (like say the ship in the E3 beta or across the harbour towards the castle if its close to a village), who knows if we may go through a forest and then a swamp before reaching the doorway? Also worth thinking about is that random engine that make some areas backdrop to change, if it would apply on the front end also, making the enemies do different stuff -or- having random enemies as a whole, those "long, same areas" would in a sense become different somewhat. I do however understand that changing colors and add mist or fog won't do much in terms of "spice things up". How about random generated front end things then? I don't even know if we will get that. Hidden traps, objects in the way and such. Oh and those secrets, might as well be random to some degree also not talking about hidden walls, but more about crates, statues, specific monster drops and such. I feel like the ship in the bloodstained demo is a middle ground. It doesn't have as much unique elements that I would hope for but there is enough variation in there that I don't feel like it's a rush job. Just think how much better that area would be with just TWO MORE unique locations within it. Just two more totally unique elements that break up normalcy of the boat. That's how important just a little more can be. It's a boat though so there's only so much you can do with that sort of design. |
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Post by Enkeria on Mar 27, 2017 13:55:08 GMT -6
Since IGA Now have time to actually make a good game, there might be minimum repetitive level designs if it doesn't take place in a big room or area (like say the ship in the E3 beta or across the harbour towards the castle if its close to a village), who knows if we may go through a forest and then a swamp before reaching the doorway? Also worth thinking about is that random engine that make some areas backdrop to change, if it would apply on the front end also, making the enemies do different stuff -or- having random enemies as a whole, those "long, same areas" would in a sense become different somewhat. I do however understand that changing colors and add mist or fog won't do much in terms of "spice things up". How about random generated front end things then? I don't even know if we will get that. Hidden traps, objects in the way and such. Oh and those secrets, might as well be random to some degree also not talking about hidden walls, but more about crates, statues, specific monster drops and such. I feel like the ship in the bloodstained demo is a middle ground. It doesn't have as much unique elements that I would hope for but there is enough variation in there that I don't feel like it's a rush job. Just think how much better that area would be with just TWO MORE unique locations within it. Just two more totally unique elements that break up normalcy of the boat. That's how important just a little more can be. It's a boat though so there's only so much you can do with that sort of design. Hmm, an area with fire would do wonders. Another area with some kind of shipwreckage floating around, making havoc inside the ship. There are possibilities. And I hear ya. That area is semi-small, if feels big. And with a lot of changes, they will most likely take a look at it more than a few times and get the feel for it, if needed. |
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Post by Lestaroth on Mar 27, 2017 17:44:07 GMT -6
Thanks a ton for this thread. These are mechanics are are either truly never delved upon (taken as granted), or plain dissed when it is obvious...
I tend to be tolerant and used to the games of old and so I choose the first option.
1) Design reusing, palette swaps, head-swapping... these have been around ever since videogaming went beyond the big chunks of blocks for graphics phase.
These have been perfect techniques for games of past times, those with a limited cartridge/disk capacity.
Very common in RPGs to substantially increase the number of enemies ("oh, a stronger cousin of the basic slime, this one's blue instead of green").
Dungeon-design was the same, only the design, colors and inhabitants varied... Zelda and Zelda II show this well.
I don't really mind structures being recycled in games like Portrait of Ruin, but I do feel that they could have at least modified things a little, so it doesn't seem like a sad copy-pasting move. It can be used in Bloodstained, but sparingly.
I also am not a partisan of "about everything is not found anywhere else". This sort of creativity is rare and praised for a reason, if executed well.
It's also very good if you got a design team that can imagine an extremely wide variety of environments.
Quite a few times in fangames that implies a collaborative project and the result is not homogenous. Quite a risk, if you ask me.
2 and 3) I enjoy soft locks, unless the monsters/traps you encounter that way will obliterate you (I wouldn't try to farm items from monsters I got extremely low chance of defeating), and so I prefer having strong warnings before treading on new territories (I like to play as a tactician).
Hard locks are only good if you remember where you were stuck. I surely don't enjoy a game where you reach a dead-end, try to remember where that barrier was and need to turn every rock around to find it.
That simply is not fun.
It's just like in these point-and-click games where you use all options out of despair (item combination, anyone?), missed a TINY little item that devs didn't make shine/glitter or trigger a speech bubble (so you could collect it), talk to EVERY boring NPC around... Adventure games and RPGs suffer a lot from this too.
Yes, I then like when the hard locks are marked on the map. It makes things so much less tedious then.
and no, I don't want a Navi 2.0, thanks.
Backtracking is only good if you have shortcuts that will bring you more or less close to the points of interest.
Why would you go through half of a castle to find one item/skill/npc? That would be plain stupid.
4) This was a bit touched upon when I talked about palette swaps.
This tech implies that the boss is not so important it's unique/the last of its kind. Great to farm if the dropped items are valuable. Fun to bully if you had a trouble with their boss incarnation (as long as they're not the cheapo kind). Shows how kickass you are. Maybe a lazy move from the devs too.
It may end boring if there are too many of them... like these fire demons and lesser demons.
And then, a bunch of Slogras and Gaibons? I was all "Eh, really? I didn't know they had a family."
Etc. etc.
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Mar 27, 2017 17:45:50 GMT -6
I'm going to be that guy and say that the Reverse Castle, while cool in concept, was my least favorite part of Symphony. The castle should try not to do something like that, but I do not MIND repetitious environments to an extent. So long as each area looks different enough and doesn't keep singular drab look, I should be fine. Throw in a garden, a library, maybe a dog house. I dunno.
Hard Lock or Soft Lock? I'd lean towards soft lock as not many people enjoy backtracking...though if you are playing this kind of game you should know that's what you are getting yourself into.
As for bosses, definitely definitely DEFINITELY unique for all of them. Degraded bosses are never a good idea. It feels lazy, it feels like padding. Even some of my favorite games did this and I hated it when it did so. Bayonetta comes to mind as well as Symphony. I hope they don't fall into this trap.
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 28, 2017 8:24:41 GMT -6
I'm going to be that guy and say that the Reverse Castle, while cool in concept, was my least favorite part of Symphony. The castle should try not to do something like that, but I do not MIND repetitious environments to an extent. So long as each area looks different enough and doesn't keep singular drab look, I should be fine. Throw in a garden, a library, maybe a dog house. I dunno. Hard Lock or Soft Lock? I'd lean towards soft lock as not many people enjoy backtracking...though if you are playing this kind of game you should know that's what you are getting yourself into. As for bosses, definitely definitely DEFINITELY unique for all of them. Degraded bosses are never a good idea. It feels lazy, it feels like padding. Even some of my favorite games did this and I hated it when it did so. Bayonetta comes to mind as well as Symphony. I hope they don't fall into this trap. It's totally cool to have that opinion. For me when I first played that and it happened I was shocked and blown away. On repeated playthroughs it was less cool but in a way I enjoyed it because their was harder enemies there and if you wanted to keep playing there was at least SOME challenge. My only reason for mentioning the reverse castle was to show why it works over something like a color swap like in HOD. It feels like a different castle because of the layout being reversed, whereas HOD it was merely a color swap and nowhere near as shocking. Is either needed? No, but if they plan on doing something like this I rather something truly wild like in SOTN's over something like a well now the castle has a BLUE TINT! |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Mar 28, 2017 9:00:34 GMT -6
More castle with the inverse method is better than not having more castle. It was probably a budget-feasible method of making more game that didn't strain their resources or time in a way that hadn't per se been done before.
The same can be said of how OoE and the other DS games are designed, in that they're not as varied within areas as SotN is. That's just how it had to be most likely from constraints anyway, it's documented that Konami wasn't exactly generous with allotted time and money for those games, on top of them being relegated to portables.
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All Igavania-esque games have backtracking, of course. But that can be both required, optional, and it can be minimal or really prevalent. Symphony of the Night had a lot of mandatory backtracking, you always needed to go back in forth in search for abilities and itens to proceed, while Lament of Innocence had almost 100% of backtracking being mostly optional. You could really play the game in a very linear way, if you want too, with most backtracking being for power ups.
A boss who, after being defeated, returns later in the game, not as a boss, but as a regular enemy instead (sometimes more than one appearing at once). For some, all bosses should be unique, to make the fight against them rewarding. But sometimes, making degraded boss opens rooms for more enemies by overusing it. 
yey