Mana
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Post by Mana on Mar 17, 2016 0:38:46 GMT -6
CastleDan sent me a message regarding his concern on the castle design and layout which is roughly explained on the first post. Upon viewing the rough sketch of the castle layout, rooms are spaced out much like SotN. However, the person who is making the map layout for Bloodstained is also the same person who designed the DS map layouts (Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow) so we wouldn't be surprised if the rooms are crammed together by the end product. But unlike the DS games, we now have more data space and additional buffer space for the whole game for the map to spread out. Inti Creates is in charge of the interior design and they have already given us a lot of unique concepts for it. They also shared their interest of making the castle interior accurate to the exterior design. Hopefully not all rooms will be rectangular boxes. Another interesting fact is that the hallways will still include "loading" rooms in-between new areas. As many of you may know already, past Castlevania games had loading rooms in order for the system to load one area to the next. It wasn't intentional, but it gave the players the feeling of entering a new area without breaking the atmosphere. We wanted to keep this in Bloodstained even if it has seamless loading system. ghaleon mentioned about someone who was concerned over bigger castle = copy and pasting. Yes there will be some copy and pasting such as the windows and glass panels, but obvious copy and pasting are pointed out and changed during design feedback. We also try to avoid tiled pattern that isn't seamless (such as the floor pattern). Hopefully we can update everyone more when we have more information
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 17, 2016 0:43:04 GMT -6
Ah Mana thanks so much. Even just little details like that mean a lot. i should have said that I actually LOVED aria's castle a lot. I thought it was one of the best. Happy to hear those loading rooms are back!
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Post by crocodile on Mar 17, 2016 1:47:26 GMT -6
CastleDan sent me a message regarding his concern on the castle design and layout which is roughly explained on the first post. Upon viewing the rough sketch of the castle layout, rooms are spaced out much like SotN. However, the person who is making the map layout for Bloodstained is also the same person who designed the DS map layouts (Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow) so we wouldn't be surprised if the rooms are crammed together by the end product. But unlike the DS games, we now have more data space and additional buffer space for the whole game for the map to spread out. Inti Creates is in charge of the interior design and they have already given us a lot of unique concepts for it. They also shared their interest of making the castle interior accurate to the exterior design. Hopefully not all rooms will be rectangular boxes. Another interesting fact is that the hallways will still include "loading" rooms in-between new areas. As many of you may know already, past Castlevania games had loading rooms in order for the system to load one area to the next. It wasn't intentional, but it gave the players the feeling of entering a new area without breaking the atmosphere. We wanted to keep this in Bloodstained even if it has seamless loading system. ghaleon mentioned about someone who was concerned over bigger castle = copy and pasting. Yes there will be some copy and pasting such as the windows and glass panels, but obvious copy and pasting are pointed out and changed during design feedback. We also try to avoid tiled pattern that isn't seamless (such as the floor pattern). Hopefully we can update everyone more when we have more information The double bar doors that separate the level and the boss room in most Mega Man games were ideal in breaking up the pacing and providing a respite from the action before the upcoming encounter. They served as a good marker for what was ahead and helped set expectations. I noticed this myself just through playing those games but I feel pretty confident I read/saw Inafune (or someone who worked on many of said games) later confirm setting such a mood was part of their intention. While I always hated the actual loading aspect of those rooms for the Castlevania games where that came up, I felt those transitional rooms between areas served a similar purpose and I appreciated them. As such, I think its cool to hear they are back.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Mar 17, 2016 7:14:29 GMT -6
I agree. The age that I played Symphony of the Night, it didn't even occur to me that those rooms had anything to do with loading at all, I more thought they were placed there specifically for the purpose of "oh, something new is coming up!", building up the excitement and wonder of what the next area was going to be. It just enhanced the experience, as you all know and have said. The doors that led to them served a similar purpose, an indicator that a new area was ahead.
Similarly, while bosses didn't always have obvious entry rooms, often after walking into an area the exit would seal behind you before the fight started or before the boss could be seen. This built anticipation just like with the loading area, but also gave you time to prepare in case you needed to heal yourself. If you were in a particularly bad condition at the time, I suppose you could Library Card yourself out, as well.
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Ancient Legion
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Post by Galamoth on Mar 17, 2016 8:48:35 GMT -6
This just keeps getting more and more interesting. Nice to know that "Loading" Rooms will return, too. I wonder if they'll all have that silly "CD" label (or a "Load" sign) like in SotN.
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 17, 2016 8:49:01 GMT -6
Yeah, I always loved those loading rooms. It gets me excited knowing i'm about to see a new area and it just felt like a good transition room that connects two very different looking areas. I will say though that I was never a fan of the boss doors in the games. I always liked the element of surprise much more than the very stagey feel of big giant boss door right next to a save room. I liked being kept on the tip of my toes over always knowing exactly where the boss was. It felt more natural to me as part of a giant castle. Galamoth My paranoia and concerns paid off
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Post by jboogieg on Mar 17, 2016 9:12:12 GMT -6
I liked having boss doors because you never stumbled into one at Super low health and lost oodles of work.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Mar 17, 2016 9:20:46 GMT -6
Eh, it depends. By default, I agree with castledan, I was actually thinking about that as I typed my last post. They're all right to have occasionally, but not for every boss imo. If there's a boss door and a save area opposite it at the end of every level, it just lends to a feeling of same-ness and predictability while also kind of breaking the feel of the castle immersion.
I think "boss door" could instead be something that obviously looks like a dangerous area/bigger open area or door than usual, etc...something you can get that obvious mood from without it being the graphic every time of a shutter that draws up when you get close to it. Really nice of Dracula to put those there, though.
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Post by Astaroth on Mar 17, 2016 9:35:32 GMT -6
While surprise bosses are fine in games where you cant save (like classicvania) or can save anywhere (since its on you if you chose or forgot to save), in a game with fixed save points you cant adjust your save strategy to fit the area, and you end up yoyoing back to the save point every time you get hit hard or the enemy drops a rare item on the way back to where you last saw the boss, plus the surprise! factor only really works the first time you stumble into one, afterward it only works if you completely forget there was a boss there OR there is a random element to meeting said boss (like roguelike mode, this mode would be perfect for no boss door because it ramps up the expectations of what may lie ahead, it may be 3 zombies or a late stage boss, with a single boss door at the very end to give you a sigh of relief but also the dread of what horror lies beyond)
I do agree that a boss door doesnt need to be a copy/pasted "THIS IS A BOSS DOOR" design, but having some thematic element like an aura coming off the door or passageway that can be picked up on is something to give the player a bit of a heads up to start searching for a save point
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 17, 2016 9:55:21 GMT -6
I think it'd be a good idea to save big boss doors for very important bosses ( like a Dracula or Death) and maybe like lesser boss enemies you get the element of surprise. Sometimes not knowing what's around the corner can be fun, it doesn't need to be smacking you across the face every single time.
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Post by Galamoth on Mar 17, 2016 10:59:52 GMT -6
While surprise bosses are fine in games where you cant save (like classicvania) or can save anywhere (since its on you if you chose or forgot to save), in a game with fixed save points you cant adjust your save strategy to fit the area, and you end up yoyoing back to the save point every time you get hit hard or the enemy drops a rare item on the way back to where you last saw the boss, plus the surprise! factor only really works the first time you stumble into one, afterward it only works if you completely forget there was a boss there OR there is a random element to meeting said boss (like roguelike mode, this mode would be perfect for no boss door because it ramps up the expectations of what may lie ahead, it may be 3 zombies or a late stage boss, with a single boss door at the very end to give you a sigh of relief but also the dread of what horror lies beyond) I do agree that a boss door doesnt need to be a copy/pasted "THIS IS A BOSS DOOR" design, but having some thematic element like an aura coming off the door or passageway that can be picked up on is something to give the player a bit of a heads up to start searching for a save pointThis. I'm of a similar mind that at least some bosses should have differing themes to their "boss doors". Some of them don't even have to be literal "doors". (Though they would all still give away the fact that they're "boss doors") A few could be open entrances, at least one with light shining from inside (like the Colosseum's Minotaur & Werewolf boss-room in SotN), for example. ^ Others, when the doors close, could have a feeling of trapping you in a claustrophobic environment.
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 17, 2016 11:32:06 GMT -6
While surprise bosses are fine in games where you cant save (like classicvania) or can save anywhere (since its on you if you chose or forgot to save), in a game with fixed save points you cant adjust your save strategy to fit the area, and you end up yoyoing back to the save point every time you get hit hard or the enemy drops a rare item on the way back to where you last saw the boss, plus the surprise! factor only really works the first time you stumble into one, afterward it only works if you completely forget there was a boss there OR there is a random element to meeting said boss (like roguelike mode, this mode would be perfect for no boss door because it ramps up the expectations of what may lie ahead, it may be 3 zombies or a late stage boss, with a single boss door at the very end to give you a sigh of relief but also the dread of what horror lies beyond) I do agree that a boss door doesnt need to be a copy/pasted "THIS IS A BOSS DOOR" design, but having some thematic element like an aura coming off the door or passageway that can be picked up on is something to give the player a bit of a heads up to start searching for a save pointThis. I'm of the same mind that at least some bosses should have differing themes to their "boss doors". Some of them don't even have to be literal "doors". A few could be open entrances, at least one with light shining from inside (like the Colosseum's Minotaur & Werewolf boss-room in SotN), for example. ^ Others, when the doors close, could have a feeling of trapping you in a claustrophobic environment. Yup, that's what i'd like to see as well. Mix it up, not every boss needs a boss door, not ever boss needs a door the looks exactly the same..etc. Give us some moments where a boss is a complete surprise, and some variety in other cases. I also have to say, I'm pretty happy with the person who did Aria's castle and Dawn's being involved in this one. While Dawn had some issues that I mentioned to Mana in my message, I largely liked the look of the castle itself. I just think the layout was better in Aria. Either way, I think both those games had better castle's than the ones that came after in my personal opinion.
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Post by crocodile on Mar 17, 2016 12:45:09 GMT -6
This. I'm of the same mind that at least some bosses should have differing themes to their "boss doors". Some of them don't even have to be literal "doors". A few could be open entrances, at least one with light shining from inside (like the Colosseum's Minotaur & Werewolf boss-room in SotN), for example. ^ Others, when the doors close, could have a feeling of trapping you in a claustrophobic environment. Yup, that's what i'd like to see as well. Mix it up, not every boss needs a boss door, not ever boss needs a door the looks exactly the same..etc. Give us some moments where a boss is a complete surprise, and some variety in other cases. I also have to say, I'm pretty happy with the person who did Aria's castle and Dawn's being involved in this one. While Dawn had some issues that I mentioned to Mana in my message, I largely liked the look of the castle itself. I just think the layout was better in Aria. Either way, I think both those games had better castle's than the ones that came after in my personal opinion. I'm having a hard time seeing the appeal in jump scare bosses. Is getting surprised once or twice really worth the cost and frustration of stumbling into a boss fight unprepared and losing all your progress in addition to any rare drops you may have collected? There's a reason games with manual save systems (as opposed to autosaves or discrete levels) usually try to direct you to save points or make it SUPER OBVIOUS an unavoidable battle you can't run from is ahead. I mean it doesn't have to be a boss door (though those are useful for making the boss encounter take place in an enclosed space which is important) but "oops here's a boss battle" seems like a ticket to bad time. I would also say the comparisons of AoS/DoS castles to that of Portrait of Ruin and Order of Ecclesia seem to ignore why those later castles were designed the way they were. That is to say I don't think you have to worry that the castle of this game will resemble that of the later games over the Sorrow games. The later games are designed the way they are because of the portrait system (and lack of resources) for Portrait of Ruin and in Order of Ecclesia, the castle only made up like 1/2-1/3 or the game instead of all of it. Just due to the basic design and narrative basis of this game and the resources available, the castle isn't going to really resemble that of the two later games.
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Post by Galamoth on Mar 17, 2016 13:09:36 GMT -6
Yup, that's what i'd like to see as well. Mix it up, not every boss needs a boss door, not ever boss needs a door the looks exactly the same..etc. Give us some moments where a boss is a complete surprise, and some variety in other cases. I also have to say, I'm pretty happy with the person who did Aria's castle and Dawn's being involved in this one. While Dawn had some issues that I mentioned to Mana in my message, I largely liked the look of the castle itself. I just think the layout was better in Aria. Either way, I think both those games had better castle's than the ones that came after in my personal opinion. I'm having a hard time seeing the appeal in jump scare bosses. Is getting surprised once or twice really worth the cost and frustration of stumbling into a boss fight unprepared and losing all your progress in addition to any rare drops you may have collected? There's a reason games with manual save systems (as opposed to autosaves or discrete levels) usually try to direct you to save points or make it SUPER OBVIOUS an unavoidable battle you can't run from is ahead. I mean it doesn't have to be a boss door (though those are useful for making the boss encounter take place in an enclosed space which is important) but "oops here's a boss battle" seems like a ticket to bad time. I would also say the comparisons of AoS/DoS castles to that of Portrait of Ruin and Order of Ecclesia seem to ignore why those later castles were designed the way they were. That is to say I don't think you have to worry that the castle of this game will resemble that of the later games over the Sorrow games. The later games are designed the way they are because of the portrait system (and lack of resources) for Portrait of Ruin and in Order of Ecclesia, the castle only made up like 1/2-1/3 or the game instead of all of it. Just due to the basic design and narrative basis of this game and the resources available, the castle isn't going to really resemble that of the two later games. I can agree that, before most of the boss-fights in Bloodstained, there should be Save Rooms nearby to serve as a small hint. I'm only saying, in agreement with Astaroth , that some of the boss-doors could have unique themes to them in order to set them apart from the rest, but still give away that they're in-fact boss doors. Sure, as you're suggesting, "jump scare" bosses wouldn't be too appealing to every player (considering what could likely happen). To make sure that you wouldn't lose everything you've collected up to that point, I think Save Rooms should be located nearby for most of the boss-rooms in Gebel's Castle. I'm a bit divided on this issue after all, it seems. I just like variety. (Addendum): I also liked Order of Ecclesia's castle layout, despite inherent problems with it (partly due to time-constraints). It's still one of my most favorite Igavanias.
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 17, 2016 13:19:05 GMT -6
Yup, that's what i'd like to see as well. Mix it up, not every boss needs a boss door, not ever boss needs a door the looks exactly the same..etc. Give us some moments where a boss is a complete surprise, and some variety in other cases. I also have to say, I'm pretty happy with the person who did Aria's castle and Dawn's being involved in this one. While Dawn had some issues that I mentioned to Mana in my message, I largely liked the look of the castle itself. I just think the layout was better in Aria. Either way, I think both those games had better castle's than the ones that came after in my personal opinion. I'm having a hard time seeing the appeal in jump scare bosses. Is getting surprised once or twice really worth the cost and frustration of stumbling into a boss fight unprepared and losing all your progress in addition to any rare drops you may have collected? There's a reason games with manual save systems (as opposed to autosaves or discrete levels) usually try to direct you to save points or make it SUPER OBVIOUS an unavoidable battle you can't run from is ahead. I mean it doesn't have to be a boss door (though those are useful for making the boss encounter take place in an enclosed space which is important) but "oops here's a boss battle" seems like a ticket to bad time. I would also say the comparisons of AoS/DoS castles to that of Portrait of Ruin and Order of Ecclesia seem to ignore why those later castles were designed the way they were. That is to say I don't think you have to worry that the castle of this game will resemble that of the later games over the Sorrow games. The later games are designed the way they are because of the portrait system (and lack of resources) for Portrait of Ruin and in Order of Ecclesia, the castle only made up like 1/2-1/3 or the game instead of all of it. Just due to the basic design and narrative basis of this game and the resources available, the castle isn't going to really resemble that of the two later games. crocodile Whenever you quote me I know it's due to you disagreeing with me haha To your first point, I'm not surprised you feel differently than me. You're a fan of the Sorrow games more than SOTN. I'm a fan of SOTN more than the Sorrow games. Preferences are preferences. Visually, it always just seemed more.... gamey... to have big boss doors in areas of the castle. I liked the very natural..OH CRAP moment of going into a boss room and having to be prepared for whatever is thrown at me. It makes you more cautious as a player, and makes you more on your toes for whatever comes at you next. That's not to say I'm against boss doors but variety is the spice of life for me and always has been. That might also stem from the fact that I was a big classic Resident Evil fan. It's always a matter of being on the cautious side and not having the game coddle you throughout the experience. I don't like games that coddle me in terms of what's being thrown at me. As to your second point, sure. It did make sense for those two games but regardless they were still far more repetitive in design which could have been avoided regardless of the reasons. The way Mana explained the process of making the new one it does seem that they're paying attention to what people have been saying in terms of making the castle. Whether it was their plan all along or they just saw some concerns I'm happy with what i'm hearing.
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Post by crocodile on Mar 17, 2016 13:49:58 GMT -6
I'm having a hard time seeing the appeal in jump scare bosses. Is getting surprised once or twice really worth the cost and frustration of stumbling into a boss fight unprepared and losing all your progress in addition to any rare drops you may have collected? There's a reason games with manual save systems (as opposed to autosaves or discrete levels) usually try to direct you to save points or make it SUPER OBVIOUS an unavoidable battle you can't run from is ahead. I mean it doesn't have to be a boss door (though those are useful for making the boss encounter take place in an enclosed space which is important) but "oops here's a boss battle" seems like a ticket to bad time. I would also say the comparisons of AoS/DoS castles to that of Portrait of Ruin and Order of Ecclesia seem to ignore why those later castles were designed the way they were. That is to say I don't think you have to worry that the castle of this game will resemble that of the later games over the Sorrow games. The later games are designed the way they are because of the portrait system (and lack of resources) for Portrait of Ruin and in Order of Ecclesia, the castle only made up like 1/2-1/3 or the game instead of all of it. Just due to the basic design and narrative basis of this game and the resources available, the castle isn't going to really resemble that of the two later games. I can agree that, before most of the boss-fights in Bloodstained, there should be Save Rooms nearby to serve as a small hint. I'm only saying, in agreement with Astaroth , that some of the boss-doors could have unique themes to them in order to set them apart from others. Sure, as you're suggesting, "jump scare" bosses wouldn't be too appealing to every player (considering what could likely happen). To make sure that you wouldn't lose everything you've collected up to that point, I think Save Rooms should be located nearby for most of the boss-rooms in Gebel's Castle. I'm a bit divided on this issue after all, it seems. I just like variety. Well I mean, in a lot of previous Igavania castles, you'd come to a fork near a boss encounter. One way would lead to a save room, the other to a boss. Without a door or something similar, when you come to a fork, its very easy to go into the boss encounter by accident when you might have wanted to go into save room first and find yourself in trouble. I'd also re-empathize how important doors are to actually enclosing spaces. Unlike say the end of a Classicvania game where you can come to a boss encounter and can have a screen that stops scrolling on one side to box you in and a dead end on the other side, part of the appeal of an Igavania is that you can move back and forth through rooms with ease. Doors force you to fight a boss in an enclosed space and prevent you from escaping or backtracking and make a whole lot more sense that a weirdly stuck screen. Like, if you were in a garden section, instead of a door, you could have a set of magic vines that open up when you get close but then close behind you and trap you in a boss room until the battle is over but overall that's just a cosmetic change from a door, its not a mechanical one. I'm also not sure why there is a demand to "mix things up" here but not with say the "loading rooms" which seem to be getting universal praise. They both serve similar functions.
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 17, 2016 14:00:26 GMT -6
I can agree that, before most of the boss-fights in Bloodstained, there should be Save Rooms nearby to serve as a small hint. I'm only saying, in agreement with Astaroth , that some of the boss-doors could have unique themes to them in order to set them apart from others. Sure, as you're suggesting, "jump scare" bosses wouldn't be too appealing to every player (considering what could likely happen). To make sure that you wouldn't lose everything you've collected up to that point, I think Save Rooms should be located nearby for most of the boss-rooms in Gebel's Castle. I'm a bit divided on this issue after all, it seems. I just like variety. Well I mean, in a lot of previous Igavania castles, you'd come to a fork near a boss encounter. One way would lead to a save room, the other to a boss. Without a door or something similar, when you come to a fork, its very easy to go into the boss encounter by accident when you might have wanted to go into save room first and find yourself in trouble. I'd also re-empathize how important doors are to actually enclosing spaces. Unlike say the end of a Classicvania game where you can come to a boss encounter and can have a screen that stops scrolling on one side to box you in and a dead end on the other side, part of the appeal of an Igavania is that you can move back and forth through rooms with ease. Doors force you to fight a boss in an enclosed space and prevent you from escaping or backtracking and make a whole lot more sense that a weirdly stuck screen. Like, if you were in a garden section, instead of a door, you could have a set of magic vines that open up when you get close but then close behind you and trap you in a boss room until the battle is over but overall that's just a cosmetic change from a door, its not a mechanical one. I'm also not sure why there is a demand to "mix things up" here but not with say the "loading rooms" which seem to be getting universal praise. They both serve similar functions. Well the better approach would be how they place it. Like the first time you see the doppleganger the save room is right in front of you before you jump up to the boss. I happen to see the loading hallway much different than a boss room door. It's not like we are saying there shouldn't be any environment switches from one location directly to the next but i think a connective hallway allows for the change to happen in an almost more natural way. The connective tissue between two different parts. A boss room however, i think part of the excitement of a game where you're trying to soak up the world is the element of surprise and not always knowing when you will meet the next big monster. It doesn't mean you can't have some boss rooms with a big giant colorful door, but do we need that always? I don't think so and I hope not. I don't want elements to take me out of it. I don't want to be THAT prepared where I see the boss room and be like, nope not ready yet. I should be on my feet and prepare for the unexpected. Maybe I'm just stuck in the 90's but i miss how 90's games worked. I hate how everything is a safety net nowadays.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Mar 17, 2016 14:23:35 GMT -6
A physical door needing to be there to seal up the boss area isn't that much of an issue. Pretty often in SotN, slabs or blocks of material will fall behind you to seal the entrance, a wall will slide in behind you, you'll fall to an area you can't get back to the top of without post-boss platforms appearing, etc.
I still like the idea of contextual "hm, this place seems suspicious/different" hints or changes in scenery that give you time to consider saving. Things like the light changes in the Coliseum area of SotN was great. Any Castlevania game, Iga or otherwise, that has a corridor of just candles/meat and nothing else. If you've been going around a while, haven't saved and miss those tells, then well, you were living dangerously. Psycho Mantis said it best "You have not saved often! You are somewhat reckless..."
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 17, 2016 14:32:17 GMT -6
A physical door needing to be there to seal up the boss area isn't that much of an issue. Pretty often in SotN, slabs or blocks of material will fall behind you to seal the entrance, a wall will slide in behind you, you'll fall to an area you can't reach get back to the top of without post-boss platforms, etc. I still like the idea of contextual "hm, this place seems suspicious/different" hints or changes in scenery that give you time to consider saving. Things like the light changes in the Coliseum area of SotN was great. Any Castlevania game, Iga or otherwise, that has a corridor of just candles/meat and nothing else. If you've been going around a while, haven't saved and miss those tells, then well, you were living dangerously. Psycho Mantis said it best "You have not saved often! You are somewhat reckless..." I was just gonna say that there could be a compromise. An example is in Aria of Sorrow right before you're about to fight legion you can see bodies walking into a doorway ( get rid of the big blue door).. It's a subtle hint that there's a boss in the next area. Little details like that would be much better, it doesn't smack you on a face with a big door that looks the same in every boss encounter, instead they show subtle clues in the actual environment that not only make the game more special feeling but feel more natural as well.
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Post by Astaroth on Mar 17, 2016 14:36:00 GMT -6
I get you on the minibosses, those i think may not warrant a full on closed off "boss door" area but to have a room where you cant go forward until x enemy is dead but you can leave if you feel overwhelmed (either through size or reach like enkidu and blackmore or by focusing their defensive abilities on one door like a grand une focusing her tentacles on barring the door behind her or a living wall type enemy hiding the door), and those type of fights could allow for having the savepoint further away because you are allowed the choice of "oh shit whats that! Do i stick it out and try fighting it or do i need to save?
There is one tactic though that i think doesnt see much use but is supremely game changing as far as whether youre truly trapped, and thats the library card/magic ticket/teleport item, that item does effectively negate being trapped unless its somehow disabled during certain fights (and as far as i know is the only way to get true dracula and shaft in your bestiary, so i use it once there and save for full completion before i beat the game)
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