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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2016 1:10:46 GMT -6
What I'm proposing is a simple system that would tell you whether an enemy is weak to your weapon attribute on hit. It would do so by just showing the enemy damage in various colors. Considering that Igavania weapons (and spells) usually have 1 or 2 attributes, a scale of 5 color combinations would work well.
We could go with something like: Red damage numbers - Enemy is weak to both weapon attributes. White damage numbers outlined red - Enemy is weak to one attribute and neutral to the other (if the weapon has a second attribute). White damage Numbers - Weapon attributes deal neutral damage to the enemy or they cancel each other out (enemy is weak to one, resistant to other). White damage numbers outlined blue - Enemy is resistant to one attribute. Blue damage numbers - Enemy resists both attributes.
The reason I think something akin to this should be implement is because it would make the gameplay more streamlined. This way you could easily tell if your attacks are effective against an enemy and quickly adapt to the situation without having to check, or memorize, the monster compendium. A system like this would also help with first encounters, where you don't have data on the enemy, especially when facing bigger enemies and bosses, as they could have resist/weakpoints that would possibly interfere with assessing their attribute weakness.
Thoughts?
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Post by Pure Miriam on Oct 10, 2016 1:45:44 GMT -6
I agree with you. Portrait of Ruin was the only Igavania game, as far as i remember, that had this kind of system. When you attacked an enemy, it could flash Blue (strong to that element) or Red (normal damage OR weak to that element). I think this was a nice little thing that really should be turned into default thingy for all other games.
I just think that the color coded damage could be simpler than what you said. Some weapons have more than one attribute, that is truth, but even so, it is the damage itself that matters, right? We still dont know what happens if you Slash an enemy with a Fire Sword and the enemy is strong against Slash and weak against Fire, for instance. On the Demo, we could saw that the enemies doesn't flash when attacked like some Igavania games in the past (not all flashed, i know), so, the idea to put the colors on the numbers is a really good idea. But even so, i think that visual indicators for the player must be as simple as possible. So, let me take the liberty to rearrange your suggestion to something, for me, a little more simple:
Red damage numbers - Enemy is weak against that attack damage / element. White damage Numbers - Enemy is neutral against that attack damage / element. Blue damage numbers - Enemy is strong against that attack damage / element. Green damage numbers - Healing effect (enemy absorbs that damage / element, or you (or the enemy) used an item). Big, flashing numbers (that can be red, white or blue) - Critical hit.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2016 1:59:43 GMT -6
We still dont know what happens if you Slash an enemy with a Fire Sword and the enemy is strong against Slash and weak against Fire, for instance. Some of the previous entries would display a damage effect in the element that did the most damage. So if you threw a dark and fire spell, and the enemy is only weak to fire, the spell would do a fire impact effect on the enemy. I was going off the assumption that this would return in the game, but I completely forgot to add this to the opening post. Good catch. If, however, that effect system isn't implemented, I think your color scheme would work great. The only alteration I would do is change critical hits, with them being displayed with larger numbers alongside an exclamation mark. So, a normal hit would be 75 while a critical 118!.
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Post by Yän on Oct 10, 2016 5:08:47 GMT -6
So what about numbers when Miriam gets hit? Shouldn't they look different too so you can make out whether that was a hit against you or an enemy? I'd say red numbers for a hit against Miriam would feel appropriate and most people would associate red numbers with something bad instantly.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2016 9:15:28 GMT -6
So what about numbers when Miriam gets hit? Shouldn't they look different too so you can make out whether that was a hit against you or an enemy? I'd say red numbers for a hit against Miriam would feel appropriate and most people would associate red numbers with something bad instantly. I'm completely indifferent as to what color will be used for what, so you won't hear me objecting about the color scheme choice. The damage numbers don't even need to be color coded, but instead have icons attached to them. What I find important is that there is some sort of visual cue as to how effective a weapon is on an enemy.
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Post by m0nkf15h on Oct 10, 2016 15:26:14 GMT -6
Personally i think having all these different coloured numbers splashed around would maybe take away from the games aesthetic. I think if you give the player too much information about what a creature is vulnerable to you risk making the game kind of easy. When it comes to weapon types (slashing, hammer etc.) the player should be allowed to experiment and find these things out rather than have them displayed like some kind of Maths Rainbow on the screen. Icons could be used in the bestiary to show what affinities a creature is vulnerable to (or strong against?) but thats as far as i'd go - and then only after the monster has been defeated. I would not want the damage indicators to hold my hand too much.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Oct 11, 2016 9:11:39 GMT -6
While I don't feel too strongly on the subject either way, I do agree with monkfish. I do think that the elemental effect appearing to note a weakness is good. I like seeing things like that in general, it's always kind of disappointing to me when you have an elemental/unique damage type weapon that does not have any sort of unique graphical effect setting it apart from standard attacks (i.e. magic and blessed upgrade path weapons in Souls games - aside from their UI icon, they look identical to standard).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 12:23:32 GMT -6
m0nkf15h , purifyweirdshard ; Thing is, we already have different colored indicators for health recovery, health damage, mp damage and enemy damage. I don't see how having a couple more would ruin the game aesthetic. Concerning how this system would affect difficulty, I don't really see how it could make a difference. It just quickens the process of finding the weakness of a stronger foe while saving you from having to remind yourself or remember stats of weaker enemies. All this does is streamline the experience. Moreover, it would be extremely easy to implement the option to turn weakness/resistance indicators off, in case someone really finds them an eyesore and/or wants to memorize the monster compendium. I really can't think of a reason to not throw something like this in.
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Oct 11, 2016 14:37:43 GMT -6
What I'm proposing is a simple system that would tell you whether an enemy is weak to your weapon attribute on hit. It would do so by just showing the enemy damage in various colors. Considering that Igavania weapons (and spells) usually have 1 or 2 attributes, a scale of 5 color combinations would work well. We could go with something like: Red damage numbers - Enemy is weak to both weapon attributes. White damage numbers outlined red - Enemy is weak to one attribute and neutral to the other (if the weapon has a second attribute). White damage Numbers - Weapon attributes deal neutral damage to the enemy or they cancel each other out (enemy is weak to one, resistant to other). White damage numbers outlined blue - Enemy is resistant to one attribute. Blue damage numbers - Enemy resists both attributes. The reason I think something akin to this should be implement is because it would make the gameplay more streamlined. This way you could easily tell if your attacks are effective against an enemy and quickly adapt to the situation without having to check, or memorize, the monster compendium. A system like this would also help with first encounters, where you don't have data on the enemy, especially when facing bigger enemies and bosses, as they could have resist/weakpoints that would possibly interfere with assessing their attribute weakness. Thoughts? Good idea, though not sure if it'll be implemented. In the past, IGA has always pushed people to check out the Beastiary, by telling you what items you haven't gotten from enemies yet, weaknesses, resistances, HP, things like that. Though I'm totally for it! Let's hope Iga implements it!
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Post by m0nkf15h on Oct 11, 2016 17:34:28 GMT -6
m0nkf15h , purifyweirdshard ; Thing is, we already have different colored indicators for health recovery, health damage, mp damage and enemy damage. I don't see how having a couple more would ruin the game aesthetic. Concerning how this system would affect difficulty, I don't really see how it could make a difference. It just quickens the process of finding the weakness of a stronger foe while saving you from having to remind yourself or remember stats of weaker enemies. All this does is streamline the experience. Moreover, it would be extremely easy to implement the option to turn weakness/resistance indicators off, in case someone really finds them an eyesore and/or wants to memorize the monster compendium. I really can't think of a reason to not throw something like this in. The indicators we have relate to the player character, Miriam, who we control so it makes sense that we'd know information pertaining to ourselves (before you say it enemy damage indicator is damage dealt by us so it still makes sense we'd be aware of it). To me it makes less sense to be aware of, for example, if the enemy is weak vs slashing because as Miriam we'd be unaware of this. So for me this kind of breaks immersion you could argue that its not that big a stretch from what we're used to but for me this matters.You're not arguing for a couple more indicators you're arguing for 4 - 5 all with complex definitions PLUS an icon system. I'm hoping for a gothic kind of gameplay experience so i dont want brightly coloured numbers all over my screen. I don't want to have to learn what the colours mean - i just want simple, clear feedback so i can tell what i really need to know at a glance. If i'm given to much information on enemy weaknesses it limits the scope for experimentation because i'll know whats most effective and i can gear my crafting in that direction - i dont want that, i want to find things out though testing them. I don't want a streamlined experience or a quickened process i want the old IGAvainia experience that i'm used to, that we've been deprived of for so long. I want the sort of thing you describe in the bestiary where i feel it belongs, not cluttering my screen in the middle of combat.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Oct 12, 2016 1:25:26 GMT -6
If indicatros can pollute the game, there is something easy that can be done too. Let the numbers as they are now, and just add a special effect on the attack, when it lands, if the enemy is weak against it: Neutral damage: no effect. Enemy is strong against that damage: no effect. Enemy is weak against that damage: a special effect shows up where the attack landed (a small fire, a bigger slash, some cracking ice and such).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2016 6:46:34 GMT -6
LeoLeWolferoux ; Truth be told, I actually hope IGA avoids this entire section and just does his own thing. That being said, I'd rather the compendium was repurposed to contain vast amounts of lore instead of just holding a bunch of stats and a description line. It would be even better if the lore for each entry gradually expanded as you fulfilled certain requirements (story progression, unique item discovery, enemy kills, etc.). The indicators we have relate to the player character, Miriam, who we control so it makes sense that we'd know information pertaining to ourselves (before you say it enemy damage indicator is damage dealt by us so it still makes sense we'd be aware of it). To me it makes less sense to be aware of, for example, if the enemy is weak vs slashing because as Miriam we'd be unaware of this. So for me this kind of breaks immersion you could argue that its not that big a stretch from what we're used to but for me this matters.That's an absolutely ridiculous notion. When you hit something you can both see and feel how much damage you've done. When you stab something with a fork do you not see it going in, do you not feel how much force is needed to push the fork in? I was completely open to the option of only two more or an icon system instead of a color system. The experimentation and testing you mentioned amounts to nothing more than switching weapons at the start of the fight until you find the weakness of an enemy. It isn't complex or hard. Implementing a few more colors would do nothing but save time. I also love how you completely ignored my suggestion to have an option to turn the indicators off.
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Post by m0nkf15h on Oct 12, 2016 7:24:14 GMT -6
If indicatros can pollute the game, there is something easy that can be done too. Let the numbers as they are now, and just add a special effect on the attack, when it lands, if the enemy is weak against it: Neutral damage: no effect. Enemy is strong against that damage: no effect. Enemy is weak against that damage: a special effect shows up where the attack landed (a small fire, a bigger slash, some cracking ice and such). This is a great idea. Simple, clear and uncomplicated. Love it! It's an elegant solution, gives clear feedback so we can tell whats effecting the enemy. Still leaves room in the bestiary for icons etc. where they should be, and it leaves room for experimentation too as an effect would only show if an enemy is weak vs something. It's the perfect solution in my view. This is a good idea - alongside the traditional bestiary functionality. You could have the stats an icons directly underneath the monster image and have the lore beneath this gradually filled in or "translated from demonic script" as you kill more of the same enemy type. Its nice because it gives another thing for the completionist player to strive for.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Oct 12, 2016 8:29:55 GMT -6
Well, games are enjoyed in different ways by different people. The process of finding things out is fun for others, while it just takes up time for other people. Kind of like a right and left-brained kind of issue.
I always play games without knowing/looking up anything because that's what I enjoy. If Bloodborne told me the best way to kill something or where to find things, it wouldn't be nearly as fun. IGA games are quite a bit about exploration and discovery, so it follows that the player would need to experiment.
Some people hate surprises, even good ones I mean. Myself, I don't want concrete and predictable info in front of me for all these things. I mean, for work and life routines yes, but for a game where I'm trying to explore an unknown world, the less that's already written in stone, the better. Optimization and efficiency are desirable only after I myself have happened upon them.
Funny enough, I even play fighting games this way and yeah, it does hold me back in a few ways lol. It makes it much more enjoyable though, having your own thing/way you play your characters in an environment of people that play to the letter from the wiki/Youtube tutorials. A lot of the time, those less-explored methods are pretty strong, and not just in an unfamiliarity sense.
The thing about "just be able to turn it off" is true, too, but we are looking at adding something to their plate in an already huge project. I think that's the main "con" of any feature suggestion, really. It's NOWHERE NEAR the same level as "just be able to toggle shaders" like folks were suggesting a while back, though haha. It wouldn't be THAT much work to get it in, and I imagine the toggle could be similar to how relics can be turned on and off in SotN.
And this is completely subjective, but I don't like having to set limitations on my gameplay experience purposefully. I'd rather it just be the same for everybody, so we're all having the same experience.
I could talk to a friend and say, "Man, that Death boss just before Gebel is really tough...but I've learned a lot about his patterns and where I can stand on the screen. It's pretty interesting how the whip weapons can reflect his scythes!"
and he goes, "Huh that's neat I guess, I saw my ice weapon was doing blue numbers so I figured he must be weak specifically to fire, so I spammed fire demon shard. I didn't even see his attacks actually"
But that's just how things are, lol. Hopefully the game would be balanced where this kind of example wouldn't occur, but just in case, the fun of it could be enhanced in such a way. I remember something similar with Fire Emblem: Awakening, where I was saying something similar about how the game was pretty challenging, to which a friend would say "nah it's pretty broken, you just give everybody the Dark Flier skill". Well, I mean, yeah...I guess if you seek out whatever the strongest thing is via external research, every game can be easy?
Such a burden on developers these days, lol.
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Post by Yän on Oct 12, 2016 9:56:19 GMT -6
Weren't weak attacks always marked by having the monsters flash blue upon an attack instead of red or am I just dreaming that up?
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Post by crocodile on Oct 12, 2016 11:05:14 GMT -6
I don't personally subscribe to the "hide information from your player to increase difficulty" school of thought. That isn't to say you have to make everything transparent but I don't think figuring out what is/isn't effective against an enemy is the best use of my time or my mental energy. That's just trial and error and once you figure it out for one enemy you retain that knowledge moving forward for that enemy. This also doesn't change the fact you have to engage the enemy the first time, blind, before you get any sort of info - it doesn't actually spoil anything. If the question is "toggability", I would make the default state that it is off but then if you equip an easy to find relic/shard/familiar then it would show you the information. In most Castlevania games you had to find a relic before you saw the names of enemies or how much damage they did anyway. This information is also in like every bestiary ever so its not like the information is hard to find - this proposal will just save a lot of busy time. I also reject the notion that just having color-coded numbers instead of gray-blue numbers "ruin the aesthetics" but I guess that's just personal preference? As an aside, did a lot of techniques and weapons in past games have dual types? I honestly don't remember that. I feel weapons and spells having one type probably makes things simpler and avoid situations where an enemy resists or absorbs one type but is weak to the other
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Post by Pure Miriam on Oct 12, 2016 11:41:09 GMT -6
If indicatros can pollute the game, there is something easy that can be done too. Let the numbers as they are now, and just add a special effect on the attack, when it lands, if the enemy is weak against it: Neutral damage: no effect. Enemy is strong against that damage: no effect. Enemy is weak against that damage: a special effect shows up where the attack landed (a small fire, a bigger slash, some cracking ice and such). This is a great idea. Simple, clear and uncomplicated. Love it! It's an elegant solution, gives clear feedback so we can tell whats effecting the enemy. Still leaves room in the bestiary for icons etc. where they should be, and it leaves room for experimentation too as an effect would only show if an enemy is weak vs something. It's the perfect solution in my view. Thank you =) Weren't weak attacks always marked by having the monsters flash blue upon an attack instead of red or am I just dreaming that up? The only game that had that, as far as i remember, was Portrait of Ruin.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Oct 12, 2016 12:07:46 GMT -6
The "hiding information" isn't really about difficulty, though. That's my point - to a player like me, finding things organically is much more fun. I probably won't even worry about a monster's weakness unless I'm having trouble with it (if that even happens in this game), at which point I will start trying to use different things to see which of my attacks work better. Trying out different weapons/attacks is a large part of the enjoyment of these games, so I'm definitely down with seeing how my various favorites interact with the monster. Maybe I even find an option that while not an elemental hard counter, happens to work very well by attack angle, its special input move, etc?
It would be a personal taste thing for enjoyment of the game, not an aim to make the game harder. This particular case isn't a big deal, though. Something I'd be outright opposed to would be like, all breakable walls being obvious, all crafting recipes given in-game, NPCs/game design telling you where to go/what to do and so on. Those are more clear examples of where we should learn through playing.
If this game were a more difficult endeavor along the lines of SMT where you NEED to use weaknesses against just about everything, it might be a good addition...but even in those games, part of the gameplay is figuring out those weaknesses on your own, and it being very rewarding when you do so.
I guess that's what it boils down to, in my case. The game won't be very difficult, so at least making it kind of an organically unfolding experience of exploring options sounds good. I don't necessarily want the game to tell me "hey, what you're doing is okay I guess, but its weakness is x!". Leave me alone, game, I'll probably just have to hit it two times with Square instead of once.
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Post by Yän on Oct 12, 2016 12:22:11 GMT -6
This is a great idea. Simple, clear and uncomplicated. Love it! It's an elegant solution, gives clear feedback so we can tell whats effecting the enemy. Still leaves room in the bestiary for icons etc. where they should be, and it leaves room for experimentation too as an effect would only show if an enemy is weak vs something. It's the perfect solution in my view. Thank you =) Weren't weak attacks always marked by having the monsters flash blue upon an attack instead of red or am I just dreaming that up? The only game that had that, as far as i remember, was Portrait of Ruin. Nah, Order of Ecclesia does it too See at 1:35 Anyway I think that always worked pretty well. I also like the idea of having little special effect animations if the enemy is weak against your attack.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2016 12:55:14 GMT -6
crocodile ; Every weapon that had an additional element (fire, ice, etc.) did both the appropriate weapon type damage and the damage of whatever element was attached. Magic with 2 types of attributes wasn't uncommon either. I'm not really sure whether this was present in every igavania, but it was in the last few entries. Also, glad to see that we're in a general agreement concerning all of this. The thing about "just be able to turn it off" is true, too, but we are looking at adding something to their plate in an already huge project. I think that's the main "con" of any feature suggestion, really. It's NOWHERE NEAR the same level as "just be able to toggle shaders" like folks were suggesting a while back, though haha. It wouldn't be THAT much work to get it in, and I imagine the toggle could be similar to how relics can be turned on and off in SotN. Implementing something like this is EXTREMELY simple as the game already does a weakness check and displays damage. Depending on the coding, all of this could be done in a single afternoon and by only one employee.
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