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Post by CastleDan on Oct 22, 2016 17:02:25 GMT -6
It does. My main issue of concern was mention somewhere above using the example of the ship level.
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Post by Valtiel on Nov 2, 2016 6:25:15 GMT -6
I'm really hoping they don't use it for level design, NMS-style. In a genre that lives or dies by its level design, this WILL hurt the game. It's a terrible idea and a major red flag if they go with it. If it's just art assets it's not a huge deal.
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XombieMike
Administrator
Fifty Storms
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Post by XombieMike on Nov 2, 2016 16:23:41 GMT -6
I'm really hoping they don't use it for level design, NMS-style. In a genre that lives or dies by its level design, this WILL hurt the game. It's a terrible idea and a major red flag if they go with it. If it's just art assets it's not a huge deal. Like our community manager said in this thread and Ben Judd in the BCB, it's not used for level design.
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Post by Valtiel on Nov 2, 2016 18:33:15 GMT -6
Like our community manager said in this thread and Ben Judd in the BCB, it's not used for level design. Sorry, I'm not on here too often anymore and am not familiar with the who's who of this place. I saw that mentioned but didn't realize it was from a credible source. That's great news for sure.
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Jango
New Blood
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Post by Jango on Nov 25, 2016 19:19:23 GMT -6
Procedural Generation tools are a paintbrush or a mouse cursor. If you liked the artist's taste and choices before the tool was available you'll likely feel the same now. Likewise, if you had problems with the artist's work before that's not going to change because of a change in toolsets.
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purifyweirdshard
Administrator
Administrator
Calling from Heaven
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Dec 13, 2016 13:23:15 GMT -6
The next update has been said to cover this in greater detail to clear some things up. Look forward to that!
These wall meat cracks on the forum are procedurally generated *triggered*
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Post by wissenschaft on Dec 13, 2016 14:56:11 GMT -6
I'd like to applauded Pure Miriam's detailed analyst of backgrounds. Iga games are all about the small details adding up to a beautiful whole.
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Post by jboogieg on Dec 13, 2016 15:07:21 GMT -6
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waifu
New Blood
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Post by waifu on Dec 14, 2016 0:09:06 GMT -6
Heavily against procedural. Handcraft everything, if you have to delay again do it. Dont tarnish the game to save time.
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Galamoth
Ancient Legion
Eternal Guardian
[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
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Post by Galamoth on Dec 14, 2016 0:19:41 GMT -6
Heavily against procedural. Handcraft everything, if you have to delay again do it. Dont tarnish the game to save time. In that case, you might as well be against the very existence of Symphony of the Night. IGA, and the developer teams he worked with, have made use of Procedural Generation techniques since the very first Castlevania game he participated in making.
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
Shardbinder
[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
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Post by Pure Miriam on Dec 14, 2016 0:41:22 GMT -6
I'd like to applauded Pure Miriam's detailed analyst of backgrounds. Iga games are all about the small details adding up to a beautiful whole. Thank you =)
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Astaroth
Fifty Storms
What a wonderful night to have a curse...
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Post by Astaroth on Dec 14, 2016 11:29:05 GMT -6
Heavily against procedural. Handcraft everything, if you have to delay again do it. Dont tarnish the game to save time. the game would take 15 years to make or have a team of 500 artists and never make even a fraction back what it cost to make, either that or you would have a very visually stunted game due to the artists only being able to handcraft so much and the designers needing to repeat those assets over a larger portion of the game (see OoE and other gba/ds igavanias for perfect examples of block repetition, a good portion of that repetition is due to cart size constraints and heavy time/budget restrictions placed on iga by konami, but it nevertheless illustrates the effect) mana said it best in the update thread, they noticed they made the ceiling too dirty and they tweaked the settings they had created and had it looking the way they wanted in minutes, thanks to things like procedural and realtime rendering bottom line is procedural generation is a tool, and iga is one of those devs that are using procedural to a good purpose, not to autogenerate a whole game but to take the assets and environments created by his artists along with settings crafted by his coders and minimize the waiting game portion of video game development
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Kent
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Post by Kent on Dec 14, 2016 19:13:26 GMT -6
mana said it best in the update thread, they noticed they made the ceiling too dirty and they tweaked the settings they had created and had it looking the way they wanted in minutes, thanks to things like procedural and realtime rendering bottom line is procedural generation is a tool, and iga is one of those devs that are using procedural to a good purpose, not to autogenerate a whole game but to take the assets and environments created by his artists along with settings crafted by his coders and minimize the waiting game portion of video game development This is the important part. A lot of people have this conception that procedural generation (or random generation) is an all-or-nothing approach to creating games. What many people don't realize (and to an extent understandably so - some of the uses are surprising, if not outright arcane) is all of the things that happen in game development that are part of the concept of, or are actually a product of, procedural generation. A great example is that anything with a shader effect is technically a procedurally-generated texture. That is, anything that's shiny, or cel-shaded, or has normal mapping or bump mapping to give the appearance of physical texture that interacts with light sources. All of those are using a set of outside parameters (i.e. light color, intensity and direction, a glossiness value, other nearby geometry, etc.) to deliver the resultant image we see applied to the geometry to make it visible. This kind of procedural generation is used in practically every game that gets released nowadays - and none of it clashes at all with the concept of hand-crafted assets and levels. On top of this, it's actually quite common to use procedural generation to come up with a "template" for certain kinds of level, area or map designs, which are then later hand-crafted - but it's noteworthy that this type of procedural generation only sees its end result in the final game, and the procedures for creating it are inside the developers' tools, rather than the game itself. Metroid Prime is a good example of where something like this happened - the physical path followed by the player was crafted using a combination of Excel (the deceptively-powerful spreadsheet program) and procedural generation to determine things like room types and controlling how many types of side-rooms, dead ends and paths-where-a-new-power-is-needed the player will encounter before they come to the next part of the intended path through the game. It actually wouldn't surprise me at all if this sort of usage was employed for creating basic room arrangements for level designers to create things in for Bloodstained. It's a far cry from the Spore/No Man's Sky sort of thing - and I completely understand how notions of those kinds of games could be, to say the least, worrisome. However, the important part is that people realize what procedural generation can be used for, and how it's inevitable to see it in most kinds of game development. We saw in the comparison video that it's being used to create graphical variations, and I think that's a wonderful usage of it, and a great example of the kinds of things it could be used to create here - especially when you consider the amount of time it would take for artists to create the same level of detail by hand for everything (and as I'm sure we all know, time isn't cheap).
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Enkeria
Silver in the Dark
Fifty Storms
Amzeer - Aurora of Rebirth
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Post by Enkeria on Dec 16, 2016 10:51:56 GMT -6
"There is a chance of repetitive and overuse of copy/paste backgrounds and assets." That chance is up to the developers. Example: Long corridor for 6 frames, each frame could have three filters. One far back, one in the middle, while the front have yet another. The far back is the backdrop, here you can create parts that random or one long corridor backdrop. Have 3 or more would do fine. The one in the middle are details, like lights and such, having a random generator which 1. choose the theme, the theme of perhaps bone candles or red fork candles. 2. choose how to spread them out on random points already attached with a % chance to spawn. 3. Choose the type of aura around it. The third one is where you actually are running, slashing and jumping. I guess this is where things are getting real tricky. I would suggest having finished "objects" under different themes, and then let those themes be chosen here aswell. Random generated can be controled. I poor man version of this would be a complete static themes with background, middle and front to all be from one source. This however would make the game less impressive, even though appreciated. I am no developers, and I guess developers can tell me that. I just like to think "how it could be made". It's a sickness
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