LeoLeWolferoux
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jul 30, 2016 18:17:18 GMT -6
Yep, I could pretty much see this as only used during Speed Runs. If you don't even see the animations, then you are missing out on a big part of the gameplay. But, if you are bored and want to save half a second here and there, go for it I guess. I doubt I'll ever use any type of animation cancelling because it looks bad. It makes the game look like it is buggy and glitched. Might as well have Miriam wiggle in front of the enemy and have slash marks hit them across the face. AHAHAHA Yaaas. I agree, things like this just don't please me. I LIKE to see animations and things like that. The dev team put them in there for a reason lol.
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Post by Torabi on Jul 31, 2016 5:21:58 GMT -6
It's a speed run thing. I've never taken such blatant advantage of BDC and other glitches/exploits in normal play, but the whole point of speed running is to find every little exploitable glitch that you can to beat the game just a little bit faster. It's not a challenge to beat the game mechanics, but rather to beat the programming itself. I'm okay with this exploit because it is an exploit, but the moment you add an intentional combo system, you're changing the base assumptions that level and enemy design are based on. And that would be changing the heart of what makes an IGAvania what it is. I wasn't asking why people would take advantage of it -- it's obvious that people will exploit whatever is possible to exploit, particularly when competing. What I'm asking is why people would argue that the developers should intentionally allow for it. And people have, repeatedly, claimed that BDC is an Igavania staple, and should be intentionally implemented. The demand is for an intentional combo system that isn't an intentional combo system, and for the game not to be balanced around it. Essentially, people are just begging for a way to cheat that they're familiar with. I'm saying the developers should either prevent it, or implement it in an intentional way that looks good and is explained to the player as intentional mechanics, and balance around it, rather than just turn a blind eye.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jul 31, 2016 7:10:26 GMT -6
It's a speed run thing. I've never taken such blatant advantage of BDC and other glitches/exploits in normal play, but the whole point of speed running is to find every little exploitable glitch that you can to beat the game just a little bit faster. It's not a challenge to beat the game mechanics, but rather to beat the programming itself. I'm okay with this exploit because it is an exploit, but the moment you add an intentional combo system, you're changing the base assumptions that level and enemy design are based on. And that would be changing the heart of what makes an IGAvania what it is. I wasn't asking why people would take advantage of it -- it's obvious that people will exploit whatever is possible to exploit, particularly when competing. What I'm asking is why people would argue that the developers should intentionally allow for it. And people have, repeatedly, claimed that BDC is an Igavania staple, and should be intentionally implemented. The demand is for an intentional combo system that isn't an intentional combo system, and for the game not to be balanced around it. Essentially, people are just begging for a way to cheat that they're familiar with. I'm saying the developers should either prevent it, or implement it in an intentional way that looks good and is explained to the player as intentional mechanics, and balance around it, rather than just turn a blind eye. That's not really necessary. Although more common in fighting games, animation cancels have a pretty strong tradition in Japanese games. It's hard to say where they are and aren't intentional, but making them look good is exactly the opposite of what makes them effective. The whole point is that they cut the assigned animation short in order to execute a new action quicker. Relevant TVTropes Entry
As for preventing it, that's not really possible without adversely affecting normal gameplay. Being able to cancel a backdash to attack is intentional and necessary for responsive gameplay. Being able to cancel an attack in order to backdash is also intentional and necessary for responsive gameplay. Taking advantage of these two features in order to quickly chain attacks together is likely not intentional(because enemies weren't designed around it), but eliminating that exploit will naturally also decrease responsiveness for people playing normally. As someone who doesn't take advantage of exploits, I'd hate for my gameplay experience to be diminished for the sake of a side effect I don't care about.
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LeoLeWolferoux
Wielder of Emptiness
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jul 31, 2016 9:51:35 GMT -6
I wasn't asking why people would take advantage of it -- it's obvious that people will exploit whatever is possible to exploit, particularly when competing. What I'm asking is why people would argue that the developers should intentionally allow for it. And people have, repeatedly, claimed that BDC is an Igavania staple, and should be intentionally implemented. The demand is for an intentional combo system that isn't an intentional combo system, and for the game not to be balanced around it. Essentially, people are just begging for a way to cheat that they're familiar with. I'm saying the developers should either prevent it, or implement it in an intentional way that looks good and is explained to the player as intentional mechanics, and balance around it, rather than just turn a blind eye. That's not really necessary. Although more common in fighting games, animation cancels have a pretty strong tradition in Japanese games. It's hard to say where they are and aren't intentional, but making them look good is exactly the opposite of what makes them effective. The whole point is that they cut the assigned animation short in order to execute a new action quicker. Relevant TVTropes Entry
As for preventing it, that's not really possible without adversely affecting normal gameplay. Being able to cancel a backdash to attack is intentional and necessary for responsive gameplay. Being able to cancel an attack in order to backdash is also intentional and necessary for responsive gameplay. Taking advantage of these two features in order to quickly chain attacks together is likely not intentional(because enemies weren't designed around it), but eliminating that exploit will naturally also decrease responsiveness for people playing normally. As someone who doesn't take advantage of exploits, I'd hate for my gameplay experience to be diminished for the sake of a side effect I don't care about. I don't think your gameplay experience would be 'diminished' if something like this was taken out. Unless you happen to be a NEW IGAvania player, and have only played the DS installments that started adding them. Aria of Sorrow, Circle of the Moon, and Harmony of Dissonance didn't have these features incorporated into them, and I think they played just fine. (Aside from the obvious awkward movement that Harmony had ahaha) Unless you plan on speedrunning the $hit out of Bloodstained, I'm sure that your gameplay experience won't be tarnished and you'll still enjoy the game, if that feature DID happen to be cut. :]
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jul 31, 2016 10:57:42 GMT -6
That's not really necessary. Although more common in fighting games, animation cancels have a pretty strong tradition in Japanese games. It's hard to say where they are and aren't intentional, but making them look good is exactly the opposite of what makes them effective. The whole point is that they cut the assigned animation short in order to execute a new action quicker. Relevant TVTropes Entry
As for preventing it, that's not really possible without adversely affecting normal gameplay. Being able to cancel a backdash to attack is intentional and necessary for responsive gameplay. Being able to cancel an attack in order to backdash is also intentional and necessary for responsive gameplay. Taking advantage of these two features in order to quickly chain attacks together is likely not intentional(because enemies weren't designed around it), but eliminating that exploit will naturally also decrease responsiveness for people playing normally. As someone who doesn't take advantage of exploits, I'd hate for my gameplay experience to be diminished for the sake of a side effect I don't care about. I don't think your gameplay experience would be 'diminished' if something like this was taken out. Unless you happen to be a NEW IGAvania player, and have only played the DS installments that started adding them. Aria of Sorrow, Circle of the Moon, and Harmony of Dissonance didn't have these features incorporated into them, and I think they played just fine. (Aside from the obvious awkward movement that Harmony had ahaha) Unless you plan on speedrunning the $hit out of Bloodstained, I'm sure that your gameplay experience won't be tarnished and you'll still enjoy the game, if that feature DID happen to be cut. :] When I say diminished, I mean from the demo's current form. The current implementation has some issues that have been noted in the feedback thread, but the ability to attack from a backdash and backdash from an attack are definite positives in terms of responsiveness.
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Redogan
Monster-Hunting Igavaniac
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Post by Redogan on Jul 31, 2016 20:23:51 GMT -6
<opinion>The way the cancelling video looks, it makes the game seem like it has a bug that needs to be addressed rather than a feature for people to get excited about.</opinion>
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BloodyTears92
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Jul 31, 2016 21:21:37 GMT -6
The difference between a true combo system and animation cancelling is more of a casual vs. speedrunner issue.
The average player who grabs the game off the shelf will likely not worry about cancelling animations. Keeping it the way it is (barring actual issues that may crash or glitch the game in a negative way) keeps the combat nice and simple for the casual player but allows for speedrunners to have the edge in their craft. And Speedrunners have been using things like this for ages in the name of shaving down time.
I've been playing 'Vania games for over ten years now, and I've never bothered with learning techniques like backdash cancelling. I just like to take the games at a good pace. But a combo system would change that experience I've come to expect from an Igarashi Castlevania: that of simple animations where combat is based around spacing and your ability to evade attacks. If someone out there breaks animations in the name of beating the game in 12 minutes, it doesnt bother me as a casual player.
tl;dr: A combo system changes the game for everyone, animation cancelling is just something a select group use and does not affect how the rest of us play the game.
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Post by endarion on Aug 1, 2016 3:37:25 GMT -6
PS4 controller (using InputMapper to show up as a 360 controller).BDC has been around since the DS 'vanias, and made easiest on Harmony of Despair on PS3/360. Bloodstained's BDC is a little tougher to time properly, but practice makes perfect. Hopefully there will be weapons with no start up frames (Like Soma's katana weapons). This would make BDC VERY worthwhile. could you elaborate on how to do this please?
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Torabi
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Post by Torabi on Aug 3, 2016 6:38:43 GMT -6
Although more common in fighting games, animation cancels have a pretty strong tradition in Japanese games. It's hard to say where they are and aren't intentional, but making them look good is exactly the opposite of what makes them effective. The whole point is that they cut the assigned animation short in order to execute a new action quicker. Relevant TVTropes Entry
As for preventing it, that's not really possible without adversely affecting normal gameplay. Being able to cancel a backdash to attack is intentional and necessary for responsive gameplay. Being able to cancel an attack in order to backdash is also intentional and necessary for responsive gameplay. Taking advantage of these two features in order to quickly chain attacks together is likely not intentional(because enemies weren't designed around it), but eliminating that exploit will naturally also decrease responsiveness for people playing normally. As someone who doesn't take advantage of exploits, I'd hate for my gameplay experience to be diminished for the sake of a side effect I don't care about. I'm well aware of the "tradition" of animation cancelling in a variety of games. I'm arguing that in most cases it is counter-intuitive, breaks immersion, and encourages degenerative, rather than deep, play. The ability to cancel arbitrary animations means that you're not committed to any particular action, removing the sense of weight and consequence, and rewarding reaction time over tactics and planning. It negates the risk of an action, because you can just cancel out of it and save yourself, thus circumventing the costs of any mechanic balanced on that risk/reward ratio. Cyclic canceling techniques, such as BDC, circumvent the "costs" built into an animation, such as startup and cooldown time. This negates the value of quick, weak attacks when you can perform strong attacks just as quickly. Eliminating the general ability to cancel animations doesn't have to impact "normal" play, and particular situations where the ability to cancel an action is desired can be built into the system in a balanced fashion. Short transition animations can be built for desired situations, particularly for an engine that is using rigged models rather than sprites. Being able to attack during a backdash does not necessarily require canceling the backdash.
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Post by Mad Lust Envy on Jun 28, 2018 20:24:45 GMT -6
I don't understand how people can be ok with this, and yet be opposed to an intentionally designed combo system or chain attacks. The ability to exploit the engine like this devalues any depth the rest of the combat mechanics might have, and invalidates much of the claims about the virtues of the simplistic combat system. What does pacing, spacing, striking and retreating, etc. matter when you can just go in and destroy an enemy within seconds by breaking the animations? I can understand complaints that command-inputs or complex attack chains focus too much on dexterity, technical skill, and reflexes, while diminishing the importance of space management and tactical play, but how is this any different? Cancelling is about practicing frame-level timing and button sequences. The main difference is that it's "secret", and not intentionally designed, and therefore unlikely to be well balanced, with complex choices or tradeoffs. It's simply practice the skill for an advantage with no downsides, and ignore the rest of the intentional mechanics that would otherwise have depth, but are rendered useless in comparison. I can only guess that people like the feeling of "cheating the system", or using "advanced techniques" that are counter-intuitive, and therefore unlikely to be discovered by a normal player, giving the elites an edge that they can take pride in. Players look for whatever advantage they can, trying to "beat" the developer. The thing is, it's the developer's job to make something fun and engaging. Their work just seems wasted and unappreciated if people just go and break it. It's like children and cats, preferring to play with the box the toy came in rather than the toy itself. Why bother making or buying toys, if people just want to play with boxes? It's a speed run thing. I've never taken such blatant advantage of BDC and other glitches/exploits in normal play, but the whole point of speed running is to find every little exploitable glitch that you can to beat the game just a little bit faster. It's not a challenge to beat the game mechanics, but rather to beat the programming itself. I'm okay with this exploit because it is an exploit, but the moment you add an intentional combo system, you're changing the base assumptions that level and enemy design are based on. And that would be changing the heart of what makes an IGAvania what it is. Mad Lust Envy Are you the same Mad Lust Envy from head-fi? I dunno if you're still around since it's been two years, but yes that is me. Hahaha. That YouTube link will link you to my outdated channel that has some audio stuff still. But yes, I still frequent Head-fi and keep my guide up to date.
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Post by Jango on Jun 28, 2018 21:50:43 GMT -6
This thread took a weird direction, but no, attack cancelling isn't counter-intuitive or preventative to depth. Quite the opposite in both regards. As is often the case in techniques like these the problems lie in usage rather than the mechanic.
Im far from a speed runner but I do and will use techniques like these when playing. Cancelling like this is just part of the game, and an enjoyable one at that. The reward for the precision, skill, and dexterity it requires is satisfying. To each their own though.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 29, 2018 0:19:49 GMT -6
Mad Lust Envy Cool. I still recommend your guide to everyone I see looking at headphones. Best damn guide on the Net for its purpose.
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Busterific
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Post by Busterific on Jun 29, 2018 9:03:18 GMT -6
The average player who grabs the game off the shelf will likely not worry about cancelling animations. Keeping it the way it is (barring actual issues that may crash or glitch the game in a negative way) keeps the combat nice and simple for the casual player but allows for speedrunners to have the edge in their craft. And Speedrunners have been using things like this for ages in the name of shaving down time. I tend to believe that the speedrunners don't need to be handed the edge so easily. That's something they should have to discover on their own. I also agree that the ability to cancel the animations and get rid of the cool down times does negate some of the risk involved in using attacks, especially with slower weapons. Just because this has been a broken mechanic in prior games does not mean that it's not broken here as well.
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